mjk05

editted- triple post

Oooh, harsh!! That's because the first lot are my scruffy kelpies, and the second are someone else's beautiful BC Don't worry, I didn't take it personally Actually both Mud and Charlie do have some stylish moves on a few sheep, but you don't see them doing the fancy footwork on big mobs. On 1-30 sheep, they seem to have the stylish moves. On more than 700, they work differently- show less eye, and seem to be either running like bu@@ery, wearing and flanking, or driving at a walk. We haven't worked any numbers in between. I'm getting my new camera this week, and then I promise I'll get some actual stylish photos of my mongrels too. Don't you love that move? I was watching my OH work my Mud-boy last week, doing some trial training on 3 sheep, and that was one of those "take your breath away" moments- he was running wide (for a change) and as he flanked, his head would turn in to check his position, and then his body just swerved out laterally to stay off them. I can't even describe it, but it made me shiver- like his feet were gliding on a track laid in the grass. That, and the "walk-up"- the way his body drops low, his shoulder blades scythe up and down with each calculated step, tail curled dangerously between his hocks. I just love it- I don't think I can appreciate my dogs until I watch someone else work them, I'm too busy worrying and bossing to stop and see the sheer beauty of the moment.

Here's some other photos of a sheepdog showing some typical postures and gaits: border collie at fast walk almost a trot gait- border collie at slow walk- border collie standing- border collie ready to cover- and the same dog at a relaxed stand, not working: These are much more typical of a working dog than the flying trot.

To avoid hijacking the thread I started for Dougie, I thought I'd move discussion of gaits seen in working sheepdogs to this thread. Originally some of us (Tassie and myself) commented that the flying trot seen in the show ring is rarely seen in dogs working. Molasseslass asked why that was. Here's my answer: Quote: Both my pet kelpie and BC occasionally use this gait when they are trotting fast on runs, or beside a bike. They never use it when working, and neither do our other working dogs. On small numbers of sheep (3 or 5) they are generally walking or cantering/galloping as they go round on cast or flanks. The "flying gait" is too fast to be moving a small number of sheep quietly, and too slow to get around to flank. On large mobs of sheep, the same sort of thing- the dogs are usually cantering or galloping around to flank. Even when they are just wearing back and forth behind a large mob, they are cantering. Sometimes they do trot when slowing down, or when holding sheep, putting them through a gate etc- but its not that "flying trot" you see in the ring. Here's some photos of some of our dogs moving a mob (about 2500 ewes/lambs). Flanking fast- Driving slowly- Putting them through a gate- Trot when holding at the gate:

I asked the resident farmer, and that's actually what he suggested... said if you lived near here, he'd loan you some. So you could probably find someone not too far off who'd lease you some sheep, and will swap them when you need to. He also said go for young lambs, early shorn if possible, and don't worry about breed, but try to turn them over. Good luck!

10 acres- you'd probably have space to keep them all at your place, would be MUCH easier, I imagine. Do you have cleared paddocks, or just one big area? Fencing OK? You might want to look at buying some mobile yards, so you can set up a round pen to start with, and then you can use the panels for obstacles later on (when you're trialling ) I dont know much about Damara, but Dorpers are quite expensive (purebred). Crossbreds are much cheaper- but they will need shearing, so you lose that advantage. I've just been thinking about it- and if you're just starting out, and haven't done much yet with your pup, probably the best plan is to wait until she's well started at training classes/clinics, and then talk to people with working dogs around your area. You might well be able to buy some sheep from them to start with, and then decide exactly what you need. Ducks or chooks could also be a great starting idea. I know people who've done most of their basic training on chooks- teaching sides, stop, walk up, get off etc. Really, as long as you have something the dog will focus on, you can do a lot of training off sheep. One of my dogs has learnt a lot of his work from "working" the garden hose. Apparently ducks can encourage dogs to work a bit close, and chooks can be difficult because they don't "flock". What I wrote didn't come out right- I was trying to say, you won't need any gear, but anyone you get to help will need well maintained equipment- so often its easier to just hire someone. OR... sell them off before they need anything done. I get too attached to sheep, lovely animals... I'd have trouble selling any. In fact, I'm supposed to be taking the pups out to do some training this arvo, but the training mob are also the "killers", and one of them is going to die for dog meat tonight. I don't think I can face them now, knowing that The riding sounds fun- wish I had more time...

I've heard that hair sheep stay light for longer, too. 2 potential disadvantages though- they might be too light for a young inexperienced dog initially, and if you have any serious wool production around your place, you might be quite unpopular with your neighbours for running hair sheep. We've worked some Dorpers and Dorper-crosses, and haven't noticed much difference, and the "dogged" Dorpers are definitely heavier than the farm merinos. If you are serious about some training, you will probably need more than 3 or 4 sheep- I think they'd get very tame very quick. Maybe 20, so you can take 5 off at a time to work? I know some people who keep 20-30 sheep just to train dogs, and they do turn them over fairly frequently to keep them fresh. Unusual breeds are more expensive- So you might be better off with merinos or crossbreds which are cheap and easily available, and turn them over more often. If you're near town, you could probably ask friends out to train, and as for small contributions to sheep upkeep. The other consideration with sheep breeds, I guess, should be your conditions (wet, boggy, dry, types of feed available) and which breeds will cope best with that. I'll ask the resident farmer what he thinks about suitable breeds when he gets home tonight. Regardless of the breed, you will probably need someone with trained dogs to come and "dog them down"for you, to make life easier for your young dog initially. Its hard to start training on undogged sheep. Its easy to find someone to help you with sheep maintenance- especially if you have friends in the sheepdog world. There are professionals who will come out and shear/crutch/do feet etc for a moderate fee- but you might be able to get someone to do it as a favour, or for a carton of beer etc. My BF has done a bit of that for friends- need to have wel-maintaind gear, though. My new favourite breed are Karakul- the neighbouring farm has them, and OMG they are gorgeous- SO cute as lambs. They also flock tightly- even when grazing, the merinos and crosses spread out all over the place, while the Karakuls stay in a bg mob. I've heard they can be tough on dogs, but haven't worked any.

They are usually specially selected "training sheep", for a group of total beginners. Once sheep have been worked by dogs for a while, they become "dogged", and almost tame- they don't get so upset by dogs or people. Usually beginners' clinics use sheep that are well-dogged initially, but hopefully not too heavy (hard to shift). Occasionally over-dogged sheep start to stand up to dogs, and challenge them, so they are usually sifted out. Once dogs get started, they tend to use different sorts of sheep- some lighter (more flighty) and sometimes some heavier or challenging sheep, so the dogs have to learn to adapt. The clinics aimed at total novices often assess your dog on leash, and may leave a long-line on new dogs, so they are easier to catch and stop. The instructor will usually be in the pen with dog + handler, and if dogs go feral and bite or chase, they are usually physically blocked (with rake etc). Its interesting to watch, even if you aren't working a dog, and most people find it easier to learn from outside the pen- its quite scarey for a total beginner with a new dog, and hard to know where you should be standing or moving.

Or a cruciate tear?

I don't know about private trainers, but I think you'd be best not to take e-collars to club classes if you're thinking of joining any obedience/agility groups. Most of the clubs have moved over to reward-based training, and I imagine you'd be asked to remove e-collars before they'd let you train.

Well, I have a kelpie who loves to play with anyone, especially at agility training I'm betting you don't live anywhere near Perth, but if you do, you're welcome to come and join us for a pittie-kelpie playdate Thant's what I love about most agility clubs- they're generally pretty laid-back and chilled-out :rolleyes:

I'd agree that that proper weaving (poles straight, in a line, so dog has to bend through them) should be left until the dog is full-grown, but I think its reasonable to start training them earlier, depending on what method you are using. Some people I know have started 6mo+ pups doing "channel" weave poles, leaving the channel at dog-body-width until the dog is full grown, and others have started pups on the Susan Garrett 2x2 method. Its probably reasonable to do this, letting the dog get a good grounding in doing poles FAST, and always entering on the correct side- and if its a wide channel +/or not many poles (3 or 4) its not too stressful. Personally I think I'll leave weave poles until late in training for my new dogs, and try to teach it quickly. My current young dog managed to learn weaving from scratch in 3 weeks, and its not perfect, but its a start. I'm starting to think that doing a wide channel or wide slanted poles for too long is counter-productive for many dogs, and they'd do better if the poles were brought up straight quickly. The other benefit to leaving weave-pole training until later is that you have an idea of which technique the dog will be physically capable of (bouncing or single-striding), and can tailor the training towards that, and the physically mature dog can learn the correct rhythm early on. Re APBTs- I've heard of many clubs that don't allow them to train, so don't be surprised if you turn up and get some bad news . Or they may ask you to train with a muzzle on. Your best chance is a club that's on private land- our clubs often train in public parks, and I've been told that "restricted breeds" like greyhounds and APBTs still have to obey those restrictions at training. On private land, restrictions about leashes and muzzles don't apply :rolleyes: . You may want to do some research about APBTs who've been very successful in agility etc overseas. There is a lovely story in an old book I have ("Enjoying Dog Agility- from backyard to competition" by Julie Daniels) about Brenda Buja (one of the early leaders in US agility, and inventor of the Buja Board). She was asked to take a stray dog and her new litter from a shelter to foster, and was very worried when she found it was a pitbull. But the dog (Max) turned out to be wonderful in temperament and athleticism, and she and Brenda went on to do the CGC, did obedience demos, and qualified for and competed in the 1990 national agility finals- only one year after her rescue. Brenda also kept a pup (Tiger- pitbullX)- who can be seen on the agility DVD recently produced by Julie Daniels. Lovely story A good google of pitbulls and agility would bring up some other nice stories and info, and you could print it out and take it along to your first agility class, just in case you get a hard time. I'm sure I don't need to tell you this, but you will probably need to be extra vigilant about your dog's behaviour and keeping him under great control- even if he's the nicest natured dog on earth, all it will take is one episode of running of to play chasey with an exciting dog, and people may start complaining. Agility is very exciting, even well-trained obedience dogs sometimes go a bit nuts- and pitbulls are judged by different standards to other dogs, unfortunately. Good luck, and have a great time!

If you train with the club I think, you might want to check that... maybe its different in the advanced classes (its been a long time since we did them) but in the beginners classes you're considered to be "not participating fully" in class if you do short stints and break off to give your dog a rest

Yep, I find the jade whistles easier to get a nice whistle from- the plastic ones (I have two types) take a bit more concentration and effort to whistle with, and when things go pear-shaped and you get a bit stressed, you find yourself just spluttering. The plastic ones also seem to get spit-logged easily- I've never had that problem with the jade. And I can get a better range of low/soft notes from the jade. One of my friends has a metal whistle (one of the montana half moon ones), and she loves it- its easier for me than plastic, but still not as easy as the jade. Considering how many of the plastic ones I have lost (the couch keeps eating them) the jade whistle isn't so expensive- I can wear it out socially and at work, so I never take it off, and look after it (well, I have lost one :rolleyes: ). I've heard you can break them if you drop a brick on one- but since mine is always round my neck now (not losing another) I hope not to drop too many bricks on it

I use a jade whistle, and they are HEAPS easier to use than the plastic ones (plus they look like jewellery, so I can wear it to work etc). So tell Glenn that you need the jade one to learn on, and he can stick with the plastic I struggled to learn to use those whistles, but the problem was that I was trying too hard. I started putting one in my mouth when I took the dogs out for long walks, or driving in the car, and gradually got the hang of it. Basically your lips are just holding it still, you make the noise with the shape of your tongue underneath the whistle. Now I've "got it", I try to practice by whistling along to the radio in the car- gets some interesting looks from other drivers at the traffic lights :D

Yep, most rain at this time of year in living memory, apparently! It was absolutely beautiful all week- few days of rain, but otherwise sunny days, light wind, occasional showers (at night). Everything's growing so quickly, sheep are fat, lambs are enormous, and the crops growing like weeds :D Makes me glad to be alive just walking across a paddock Here's two of the boys (Muddy the city dog and Buster the farm dog- both rescues, one from a shelter and one from a bullet) enjoying a run through the oats (which was over their heads- they had to keep bouncing like dolphins ): Yep, I know- even if it is a 3hour drive The dogs and I hang out for the weekends, and I'm counting the days before my next holiday. And also counting down until I move down there fulltime. The dogs might go down for a few weeks on their own soon, let them live like real working dogs (although they still get to sleep on the furniture ;) ) Anytime you feel like visiting WA, Vickie, drop me a line, and you'd be welcome to come and enjoy yourself ;) KJ- Rose and Sylvia are gorgeous! What sort of work do they do?

On the topic of what you do with your dogs: I have one shelter kelpie, who is helping me start on sheep, and hopefully will be game to have a run in a yard trial or two next year (and maybe 3sheep, although I won't clear space for the trophies yet ). We have done a couple of test days for ANKC herding, did the HT. We do agility for "fun" :D My cattle dog (not a kelpie or BC, but associates with them) also has his HT, is semiretired from obedience and agility. He supervises activities from the ute cab :p , bites impudent BC/kelpie puppies , and pushes sheep around in yards occasionally. I am also training two pups, one is a 6mo kelpie, lots of Philscreek and Avenpart in her pedigree, although she looks like a Rotti-Corgi cross :D She's an absolute little CRACKER !!! She lives at the farm, with my OH's 10 other dogs, but I get to see her on weekends, and odd "city holidays", and hopefully she'll do agility for me too. My 8mo BC foster pup (one my OH isn't keeping) is staying with us while learning to be a city dog (and find a pet home) - but he is SUCH a sweetheart, and this weekend he showed so much class and style on sheep, I am going to find it hard to part with him This week my city kelpie enjoyed his first real work on a mob- so far he's only worked small groups of sheep (up to 30). Friday we had to move a proper mob (2500 ewes and lambs) across the farm, and so my boy got to work with the two older dogs. He'd never worked so many sheep before, and hadn't driven sheep or worked in front of a vehicle before either, so it was a steep learning curve. But it was amazing how quickly he started copying the older dogs, and got the hang of turning in the corners etc. Good fun, and the he enjoyed doing some "proper" work :D Editted to add some photos:

Re: definitions of sheepdog terms... there's a brief glossary (US) here: sheepdog terms Here's another: square flanks Hi Vickie- I was thinking about this weekend- we were watching some video of UK trials (One Man and His Dog) and Australian trials- some televised events from the early 1990s, and some home video. Speculating- are the UK sheep heavier, and need more pressure from the dogs? Certainly I had much more of a feeling of imminent disaster watching the Australian dogs and sheep, even when they did nice runs. Its quite a different style of trial from the UK ones (the TV coverage, anyway)- but to be honest, the UK dogs had really square flanks too. All I know is that my kelpie doesn't give much ground on his flanks- more than I thought, watching us on video, but not much- he prefers to curve around, moving out only slightly as he starts the flank. Triallers usually point it out as a flaw. The pups I am training (one BC, one kelpie) both have lovely square flanks, and even on the trainer sheep, it feels more controlled. Both the pups also have walk-up strength, and will stand their ground, so shouldn't be hard to bring in. To see square flanks and giving ground in use on the trial ground- check out Tracey L's Queensland Sheepdog Association website, with the footage of runs from a recent trial. There's a clip of Snow Potter and Potter's Kane (placed 5th, I think), and that dog gives ground nicely (as far as I can see).

I don't think that's a BC thing, I think its a working dog thing. We were talking about this at a trial a few months back. 3 of us were walking our dogs- 4 BCs, one kelpie and one cattle dog, and 3 of the BCs and my cattle dog all have occasional "dog issues" with strange dogs at agility/obedience etc. Despite not all really knowing each other, none of our dogs had any problem with the others- they all seemed to read each other's body language and respect space. And all the dogs are much more relaxed in this atmosphere (other working dogs) than at a dog park or after agility training. It is interesting to note that some of these dogs (BCs) even have a problem with non-working-bred BCs running free with them- but not with any working-line dogs, even total strangers or rather full-on pups. My cattle dog is very much a "personal space" guy, and is totally intense about his "work" (will run through a wall to get his ball ). He also expects manners from other dogs. Its interesting that he gets quite stressed at a dog park being chased around by a lab pup or a couple of weimaraners (like we were today)- but he is totally cool with running in the middle of a pack of 14 BCs/kelpies, all actively "working" him, and some even blocking him and shouldering him and occasionally stealing his ball. The working dogs just seem to be much more adept at reading and giving body language (in working dog dialect, maybe ). So not just a BC thing

Nope! Generally when all our dogs run together, they are all "working" each other, and there will be a big string of dogs, each one "working" someone else, and simultaneously being worked. So they all get used to being harrassed by other dogs, and learn to cope. My cattle dog helps to teach them manners, too- he gets worked by everyone, something about him just screams "sheep" to any BC or kelpie we meet. He is very tolerant, but if they get too forceful with blocking him, or try to grip- he will let them know what he thinks , and they generally don't do it again Photo in my garden of the 3 lads permanently attached to my cattle dog's bum- everywhere he moves for his ball, he has M working him, followed by J working M, and G working either J or M But most of the dogs don't really "work" the other dogs like they do sheep- they might do the crouch and stalk thing, or try to block them, but its different to real sheep, and all the dogs seem to know it. At the dog park or at agility training, we often get bunches of BCs working my cattle dog +/or each other, and occasionally the cattledog will run straight over a sheepdog who tries to block him getting his ball, or he will nail one for gripping. Very rarely a strange dog has objected to being "worked" by a group of sheepdogs, but usually they don't seem to care. The sheepdogs mainly want to "work" dogs which are intense and focussed (eg chasing a ball)- not dogs plodding along or just being dogs- and the "ball chaser" usually is so focussed on the ball that they don't care about the sheepdogs. I have occasionally seen other dogs get excited by the sight of an intense focussed dog (eg a kelpie or BC focussed on chasing a toy or "herding" another dog) and have seen some fairly aggressive moves where non-herding breeds launched at a dog who hadn't even noticed them. Usually the sheepdog just outruns them and avoids them, but a few times it has got nasty. I think that is to do with fast moving INTENSE dogs, rather than the crouch or eye- usually the dog being attacked hasn't even seen the other dog, and is focussed on their own game. You see this in agility too- some dogs get repeatedly chased and set on just doing agility, because of their intensity.

Hi Wally- that's my initial impression too. I'm just a regular spectator ATM, but to my uneducated eye, the really nice casting dogs seem to do a good job with the current set-up system (which I'm going to assume is the same across the states- gate and flag-ropes to keep sheep straight). Maybe it would be nice for Encourage or even Novice competitors to have an easier cast, but the Open dogs seem to cope okay, don't they? I wouldn't complain personally if they brought the hook-pen in across the board, because I think at least one of the dogs I hope to trial will be like yours- wide around a pen, but too close casting without it. It seems easier to use the pen as a prop or cue when training, and surely would be helpful for weaker casting dogs to have it in a trial. But I suspect it would make the running of a trial significantly slower and more difficult, and our current system seems to be working OK.

I haven't seen it used, so... but is the current system (whatever that is) so bad? I haven't heard any complaints about our current system in WA. What is the currently used alternative, Denise? And how much time does it add to the trial? We already are limiting entries at some trials due to lack of time- it takes maybe 5 secs to open a gate and pull the flag ropes to position sheep with our current system- if each run had an extra 2 mins for sheep to be moved out and set-up, surely that would slow things down And some of the more "excitable" sheep used at trials might be a total nightmare to put in a pen, either with a bike or set-up dogs, or even a tray. Is it worth the delay and fuss to make it easier for dogs? I've always found the cast an interesting discriminator between dogs/handlers. Hey Vickie- good descriptions footwork is a very subjective term- some dogs I've seen described as having "pretty footwork" aren't doing the tennis ball-thing- its more the way they move on sheep, gentle deliberate steps all the way. There are some kelpies here that get comments on their footwork, and what I see is that they lift all their feet, back and front, very deliberately, almost like a dressage horse. There are also some BCs that have a particular two-foot bounce, which also gets called "footwork". Square flanks- I think (hardly an expert, though ) of square flanks as being MORE than going around the circle. The dog should actually move out further from the sheep as it goes to flank- so if you draw the circle round the sheep, and then the dog's path- it has more square corners. I am working a little pup now who shows this perfectly- she has no commands yet, but if I set her up to move around the sheep to balance, she will turn her head away from them, and set out wider than she needs to, then when she hits balance, she turns, and comes back in to the right distance, then stops. All natural- its lovely If you think of the sheep as having a bubble round them, that's the distance the dog needs to be to start applying pressure. When the dog has them held, its at that distance, applying pressure- if it flanks by going just round the edge of that bubble, the pressure stays the same, and the sheep may move as the dog goes round. If the dog kicks out (breaks out, or gives ground) as it goes, the pressure on the sheep is relieved, and they are less likely to move, until the dog comes in to apply pressure again. It also calms the sheep. Think of your hand as the dog, and a balloon as the sheep inside their bubble- if you have the balloon balanced on your hand, and move your hand round the curve of the balloon, it will roll off your hand. If a dog doesn't have square flanks, the sheep are likely to "roll" off the dog as it flanks. As far as "natural break", "break out" etc goes- I think some of the dogs on Tracey's trial videos show this perfectly- the ability to go wide/give ground when necessary. I think!

We were reading about this in the WSDA newsletter- it looks rather unnecessary and complicated What method was being used previously? I can't see a major problem with the way sheep are set-up in WA at the moment (covered yards/chute/flags). The sheep seem to end up in the same position for each competitor. Isn't that an even playing field? The hook pen set-up involves moving each set of sheep out with bikes or tray, doesn't it? Doesn't that add a significant amount of time to the trial?

I also meant to add that sometimes I think its better to start out in a new sport with a dog that's not super-talented... gives you more room to learn and mess about without ruining a brilliant dog Especially for people without lots of sheep/dog experience, like me- we are going to spend a lot of time mucking up trials just because I can't read sheep or dog correctly, and don't have my timing right, knowing where to put the dog when, and all those little subtle "shepherding, without actually shepherding" tricks the masters use. So I'm happy to have a "learner" dog to start with, and hopefully when I get a really good well-bred trialling dog I will have some idea what I'm doing

I'd hope there'd be more- in WA we have 3 or 4 utility trials a year. And we don't have yard trials on their own- we only have utility trials, and most people run the utility course, get one score for that (total) and the score from their yard section is taken out and used again for the yard competition. A few people do enter their dogs just for the yard section, but most people run the whole utility course, even if they don't expect a good score for the paddock work. Obviosuly that's a regional difference. Do you have yard trials on their own? I know what you mean, but that doesn't mean kelpies can't do 3sheep well (guessing you agree, since you're doing it ). We might be a small part of the trialling world, but considering how few kelpies are entered in 3 sheep trials, they do feature in our places fairly often. Maybe its a fairly modern phenomenon, kelpies being bred more exclusively for yard work and having lost some of their style? Personally I don't see an issue with people doing 3sheep with dogs that aren't going to be top winning dogs (as long as they are realistic, as you mentioned). I'm never going to placed, but I just want to be involved in the sport. If people (like my OH) need dogs that can work daily on the farm or out on contract work, they don't have space for dogs just for sport, so they look for dogs that can work in yards and use force on a mob if needed, but go OK in the paddock on 3 on the weekends. Luckily most of our top 3 sheep triallers also do utility trials (with the same dogs)- and dogs that are from good 3 sheep lines do well in utility/yard trials. If you look at last year's Supreme results, the dogs (BCs) that placed 2nd (Grassvalley Lisa), 6th (Boylee Pepper) and 8th (came 4th in semis- Princes Tom) are all good utility/yard dogs. In fact Grassvalley Lisa (Grant Cooke) came 2nd at the Supreme, and won our State Utility Championship in the same year. Good all-round dog So I don't think its mutually exclusive- and there are some triallers here breeding/looking for kelpies to restore some stylish paddock work, and hopefully they'll start featuring more in the 3 sheep placings.