mjk05

There's also Cloverdale (CCC)- on Abernathy Rd. I don't know what they're like- small and friendly, I've heard. Northern Suburbs classes are quite large (for beginners, anyway) and there's a lot of inconsistency between instructors (in my experience fwtw). I think it depends what you want- size of classes, whether you'd like to do agility etc. I'd recommend Perth for agility. I haven't been to Midland, but I've heard its good. Northern Suburbs (Carine) are very restrictive- you can't even start doing agility until you are in their pre-trialling obedience class. Perth has a great structured program of classes, and dogs are assessed on their control and focus in agility class, not their "competition obedience" standard. Southern River is also good for obedience and agility, although they're a long way from Morley (as is the Agility Club of WA, and Gosnells, which are also supposed to be very good). ETA: Chelsea's Mum- Ashfield Reserve is the training ground of the PTODC (Perth) agility group. Obedience is Vic Park, agility is Ashfield. They are just having informal training at the moment- the ground has been dug up, so there's only a tiny area of grass for we diehards who need to get our agility fix... I think they start again in January. Training is on Friday nights- think beginner's and intermediate starts at 6.30. Advanced train on Fridays starting at 8pm, and on Tuesdays there is extra training/games nights for Advanced/Intermediate. The beginners class starts altogether every 8 weeks, then you graduate through to the higher classes. They are good structured classes. And (like all clubs except NS), you just need a fairly well-behaved dog, no competition obedience requirement. If you drop Jules a line she'll let you know when they are starting the next intake. Her email is on the website: Perth Agility

Vickie, that's what I usually think about your posts... Actually, I think you'll find you have more experience than the vast majority of people on these "herding" threads... everything you've written so far has been well worth reading.

Okay- while everyone else is deleting their posts for some reason (mass disagreement, lack of confidence in convictions? I don't know :cool: ), I'm going to add some stuff (actually, an essay ). I have some major concerns about the growing interest in recreational "herding". 1) Welfare of livestock. As Vickie pointed out (but deleted), sheep used for training and trials are subjected to stress. That may be obvious- injuries from bites, being run into fences or pulled down by dogs, the physical exertion of running around a paddock- or it can be less obvious. Dogs stress sheep by "working" them- being too close and fast, singling them out, "chasing", not giving the sheep any rest from constant pressure. "Tame" sheep may cope better with the stress of constant exposure to dogs, some individual sheep seem to cope quite well, but as Vickie also mentioned, some "dogged" sheep are also showing a passive, helplessness response to high levels of stress... Whenever we're working livestock, we should remember that the sheep ARE being stressed by this activity, and if we aren't training our dogs to do the daily NECESSARY work of stock-handling, we are doing it for fun... and we should be honest about our dogs and balance up our right to enjoy our dogs vs. the sheep right to a peaceful existance. 2) Understanding of "herding"- I have read a lot of stuff about people testing their dogs for the first time and seeing “great working ability”, excellent instincts, a “very talented dog”. Maybe that’s because they were told that, maybe its because they were surprised and excited that their dog showed interest, and exhibited some obvious herding behaviours. I remember being THRILLED when my first “herding dog” initially balanced sheep to me- it was amazing and I was so proud. Did that mean he was exceptionally talented or even has “lots of ability”? No. There is a LOT more to a good working dog than you can see in round yard with trainer sheep… and its great that people can experience “herding”, but I worry that they may assume that’s what its all about. A while back I was at a National working sheepdog event, watching some of Australia's top dogs run- and met someone I've done instinct test and "herding fun days" with. She was also there to spectate- but obviously saw things totally differently to me, when she commented that she tought all our "herding class" dogs were as good or better than the dogs competing. I nearly choked on my beer I guess I saw something totally different- undogged, runny sheep, arena course with obstacles, the intricacies of yard work (with the judging rules that make it not as simple as it looks)- and the dogs' work was something TOTALLY different to what our dogs had been doing in their large pen, with trained sheep. This is not a criticism of people’s dogs- my first 2 “herding breed” dogs were, how can I say it, EXTREMELY average sheepdogs…. I was thrilled by them, but now I know some quality working-bred sheepdogs, I can see the enormous difference. Even my current WKelpie is a much better sheepdog than my other 2, and I am very proud of him, but he is a fairly average dog in “working-bred” company. Yes, instructors usually try to say nice things about all dogs... partly because they want to reassure nervous handlers, and partly because the first time on sheep is not a great opportunity to assess dogs' futures- so it would be insensitive and silly to suggest that a dog wasn't worth continuing with during those initial stages. 3) Breeding based on “Instinct Tests” Again, Vickie mentioned (but deleted) seeing photos on breeders’ websites of dogs “working” sheep at instinct tests etc- where they are chasing sheep, singling them and running on their shoulder as the sheep run for the fence… it makes me cringe, and wonder what on earth the breeder is thinking, putting those shots up! Yes, that stuff happens to young inexperienced dogs- but why advertise it? Is it lack of understanding of good work? I also see comments that dogs have displayed “excellent working ability”, as demonstrated by their herding tests, or that breeders are breeding for working ability, based on these instinct tests. Again- this worries me because it shows lack of understanding of real working ability... and contributes to the public misunderstanding of instincts/ability- as evidenced by the recent "Breed Standards" threads... If people want to learn about stock-work in a structured class with experienced knowledgeable trainers, I'm all for it (regardless of breed). That's what I'm doing! Its how new handlers develop an interest, and learn about the activity, and go on to working-bred dogs and trialling, or finding themselves a property and some stock... But we need to remember that "herding" is much more than being keen and able to move training sheep round a small enclosure, and we are just touching the edge of the iceberg... and ALWAYS remember that we are causing stress (however mild) to living things for our own amusement. I hope that came across OK- I'm not saying people shouldn't do "herding for fun"... I do, after all. I just want to people to think (like I am), and Vickie took her excellent thought-provoking posts home with her If anyone managed to read that whole lot of waffle, I'm amazed ETA: JD wrote: "I'm glad the ethics of a new sport is raised early on" Its not a new sport at all. Working sheep with dogs as a competition is a longstanding activity- one of the older "sports" around. I guess what we are talking about here is "new people", with non-working bred dogs in many cases, and for ANKC herding, a newly collected/modified set of rules (based on other existing competitions, but tailored for ANKC-bred dogs).

Oh come on, Vickie! You made some very interesting points, totally relevant to the topic, and things that were worth saying, even if people don't agree with them. In fact, the issues you raised sparked a great conversation with my OH about the ethics of sheepdog trialling, the "point" of sheepdogs in general and how/why they benefit sheep, and I've been brewing and thinking about these things since, discussing them with other people. My position continues to oscillate, but I'm thinking deeply on it. Its all good stuff- why on earth would you delete it?

I understand what you're saying, Vickie- but a large number of people with working-bred dogs doing WSDA trials are not relying on livestock for their livelihood- the dogs and trialling are recreational. Many of my state's top triallers are retired people or "hobby triallers"- who have the sheep to train the dogs. I believe some of the top performers at the Supreme and the National Yard trial also fit this description. Even though their dogs are working-bred, its a "sport". I guess for me- its a sport. I have a working-bred dog living most of the time in the city, and we train for trials and farmwork for fun. Its not my job. Even my OH, who is a professional farmer and cares very much about his stock welfare, has his "trials dogs" and "farm dogs" (and most dogs do both). For him, trials are a recreational activity. Its good to remind people of the seriousness of this activity for both dogs and sheep- but for many people, training and working sheepdogs is a recreational activity. People like me don't NEED to train and work dogs. Can we justify our involvement in this activity/sport? Even training very well-bred working dogs involves some stress to sheep. If those dogs are just going to be working sheep in trials or as a hobby for their owner, is that really justifiable? Its not helping sheep welfare as a whole. Maybe people like me should be happy to stick with agility and obedience with our working-bred pets... or not get working-bred dogs at all? (just playing devil's advocate here)... 100% agree with you there. I just wonder WHY they have those photos up? Do they think that's impressive "work"?

Cacharel, they are talking about AKC herding, in reference to the famous APBT Bandog Dread (he's pretty well-known- even I've heard of him, and I'm not a bull-breed person). I think he was one of the most multititled dogs ever- including at least one herding title. ETA: I've just looked it up, and I think Dread actually competed in ASCA herding (although he did lots of AKC obedience, tracking etc under an ILP). Quote from Diane Jessup's site: Dread earned High Scoring Dog In Trial on Ducks at his last herding trial, and usual placed in the top four spots while competing on ducks and sheep. He earned both duck and sheep herding titles ETA (again)- just reading Dread's owner's thoughts on herding- very interesting (sounds like she agrees with Vickie ): HERDING: Because I titled Dread in duck and sheep herding and trialed him a time or two on cattle, as well as earning "Herding Certificates" (not really a training title) on several other pit bulls, people often call me requesting information on this activity. To be truthful, it is not something I would recommend, for two reasons. First, herding trials are not for the faint of heart. I have seen stock animals killed and injured during training and trialing. It is not uncommon for the AKC type "herding" dogs, such as German Shepherd, Rottweilers and Bouviers to attack and bite the animals. While I have great respect for the herding instructors I worked with, I am too "soft" to see animals injured for no real good reason. I have not seen this type of injury when people are training "real" (non-AKC) herding dogs such as real border collies, McNabs and kelpies. To each his own; herding remains a fascinating and worthy sport when done with real herding dogs, or "non-traditional" breeds that are under strict control. There are photos of Dread working sheep and ducks- Pitbull Activities ETA more from Diane Jessup: My own dog, Dread, injured a sheep, not during a trial, but in the parking lot of a trial when, a sheep, racing away in a panic with two other sheep, rounded a car and ran right into Dread at the same time I shouted, causing Dread to react to the "attack" with a firm nose grip. (The sheep survived and was fine). If you are bothered by the sight of frightened animals running about, this is not the sport for you. Second, pit bulls are BULL dogs. They are not bred to work sheep. To ask a bulldog to work sheep requires that the dog control thousands of years of genetic whispering that tells him to grip and hold. Dread and a couple other of my pit bulls did this for me, but it took a very special and close relationship, and it was, to be honest, putting them in a difficult situation. The only reason I did it was because in the late eighties we needed some good PR, and herding got some. I would not do it again. If you are interested in herding, I would recommend you stick with ducks, as they do not challenge the dog. Also, look for a trainer who is willing to work with your breed, and then don't be surprised as many people have, when the dog grips an animal. They are gripping dogs. If you have a very close relationship with your dog, and your dog is cool headed, you may be able to trial. Last I heard, the Australian Shepherd Club of America had banned "non traditional" breeds in a move designed to keep Dread (who was placing over their "Aussies") out of the trials. After he retired I didn't pay any attention to whether they opened it up again or not. There may be some club out there that allows nontraditional breeds to compete.

You're both right (as was ML)- my apologies. I've actually been back to READ the rules again and yes, you can drop the line in the HIC test (but not the HT), and dogs can be muzzled for the HIC test, but not the HT and above. Sorry to be so confused (and too lazy to have gone back to reread the rules ). Now, should I delete all my above posts, so no-one can see my error (or understand what people are talking about)? No, think I'll be brave and tough it out! It was also interesting to read the definitions of "acceptable" gripping... and the fact that it can be done "without purpose" in the HIC test, but not above. A dog that grips abusively without purpose shall be immediately excused. Gripping or nipping is not acceptable if it is done without purpose for Herding Test level or higher Acceptable gripping must be appropriate to maintain control of difficult stock, may not be on the body, does not break the skin, and is done quickly without holding or shaking. It must be remembered that another dog may be able to control the same stock without gripping. I was sort of under the impression that any grip/bite was immediate DQ, like in 3sheep trials- obviously I need to read the rules

My mistake- thanks for clarifying that. I thought they could, but one of ML's posts suggested they couldn't (rule change?)- of course, she's deleted it now The HIC tests I've done have had the dog a fair way from the sheep, for the initial on lead section. I was thinking more of the option to have a long line trailing the dog. I know most dogs have done a fair bit of training before their HIC, but with the handler stress and new environment, its quite possible they may need extra safeguards. Just a thought.

No- I have concerns too. I just don't think there's much difference between people with totally show-bred dogs with distant herding histories, and people with "non-herding" breeds. I'm concerned about sheep welfare too- I think all your points are very valid, Vickie- but I don't think the ANKC breed list protects sheep against harrassment. Plenty of those listed breeds are capable of causing major damage to livestock. Having been used on stock 100 years ago doesn't make a breed safer in reality or more legitimate in public opinion. I don't have big issues with any breeds trying herding in controlled situations, with strict restrictions on what's acceptable. Muzzling and keeping dogs on leash until we know what they're likely to do seem good ideas (don't know why the ANKC won't allow muzzling, esp for the basic tests- seems better to prevent injuries than hope they won't happen). And I don't see ML's distinction between ANKC-herding people doing herding as a "sport" or to prove their dogs' "working ability", and people doing it with pet dogs for "fun". If we want to make herding entirely functional, there probably shouldn't be any sheepdog trials of any sort, and breeding "herding breeds" should be left to those who actually NEED the dogs for the work. (that's not what I think should happen, it just seems the logical conclusion to that idea)

EXACTLY Which is something the WSDA people in my area are starting to realise. I don't think there are a lot of "Wimbledon champions" in the backgrounds of the "ANKC herding crew" involved in this discussion. Which makes the whole thing even more silly. What is "bred for herding" anyway? My definition probably differs from others', I believe working ability needs to be actively (and CURRENTLY) bred for - but I'd prefer to leave as many opportunities open for people/dogs to prove their abilities as possible, regardless of background.

Julie, I'm not suggesting they be removed at all. As I've said, I think ALL breeds should be allowed to do herding, and yes, I know that GSDs were originally stockdogs. My OH lived in Europe for some years, and has seen GSDs working sheep in their traditional way. I've done ANKC herding tests with GSDs. ML mentioned "protection" breeds- unfortunately she has deleted all her posts, so I can't reference them. So my comments no longer fit their original context. But she and Fidelis were expressing concern that public perception about unorthodox breeds injuring sheep would cause ANKC herding to be closed down. I was just trying to point out that the public perception of GSDs is a "protection dog" breed, and that it's nonsensical to complain about public perception of "non-herding breeds" on sheep, when public perception probably doesn't think of Schnauzers, Kerry Blues, Elkhounds etc as "herding breeds". Its very hard to follow a discussion when half the posts have been deleted... well done guys

Why are people deleting all their posts from a topic? It just makes it difficult to follow the discussion. If things have got nasty, I can understand deleting a post which may be ill-thought out or plain rude, but that doesn't seem the case here. The beauty of these boards is that people can discuss issues, disagree and talk things through, usually fairly politely and reasonably... If we all go round deleting everything we say because others disagree with it, these boards won't be very interesting. Have an opinion? Have the fortitude to stand by it! Change your opinion? (or even decide you're wrong ) Say so! Realise you've expressed things in a less-than-ideal way? Try again! Come on guys, its a discussion board

Good on you! Hope you continue to enjoy yourselves (and your dogs), and its great that Dave and Geoff are providing this opportunity for you and your dogs to start learning about sheepdogs and their training in a safe, supervised environment You're 100% right on that, Sparty (and I'm sure I've heard that said somewhere before...). Most of us here are just starting, I think.

MolassesLass wrote (but has now deleted): Hmm, not sure what you base that on. The farmers (with a strong interest in good working dogs) I know are very concerned by gripping. No-one likes to see their sheep with holes in, or even unnecessarily stressed. Its bad stockmanship. Its one of the more common reasons for people "moving dogs on". In some cases (esp with farmers with less interest in training) the penalty is far greater than a few points lost in a fun event. But (as Vickie mentioned)- its not just about gripping. Some of the most dangerous behaviour I've seen has been sheep-chasing, singling one out and running it into a fence, that sort of stuff. MolassesLass also wrote (but deleted): Yep, I am!!! If you read my original post on here, I'm personally advocating ANY breed being able to do ANKC herding, if they are safe and well controlled. I'm just trying to point out that its ridiculous to believe its safer +/or more publically acceptable to have Elkhounds and Schnauzers doing ANKC herding, but not Rotties (or pitbulls, or labradors). MolassesLass wrote (and deleted): But aren't you breeding because you want to, because you enjoy it? You could have picked another breed, and left the production of working dogs to people who have livestock. Not saying you should, I'm all for people breeding carefully and conscientiously, when there is a niche for their dogs - but isn't personal enjoyment a big part of why most ANKC people breed? And how much influence does ANKC herding actually have on breeding decisions? How many breeders will remove a dog from their breeding program because it fails a herding test? Most dogs seem to pass HIC/HT on their first attempt- and I believe almost any dog can get through to PT with enough training. How many breeders actually use the herding tests to make breeding decisions EFS (and missed words ) Editted to clarify that I was quoting MolassesLass, who subsequently deleted all her posts

I agree that public perceptions are important for stockdog trials (both WSDA and ANKC). It seems ironic that some WSDA people are "paranoid" about being associated with the ANKC herding events if "something bad" should hit the media... and now some ANKC people feel the same way about non-ANKC "pet dog" herding events. I also feel this is why its important that ANKC people are careful with the imagery and advertising they use for their dogs and events. I have seen some websites (breeders and clubs) which display photos of young/novice dogs chasing sheep, that make me cringe. Looking at these photos, and reading discussion about the dogs' "working ability" being tested via ANKC achievements, it would be easy to imagine that this is the standard of "work" conducted at ANKC events, which is not reassuring from an "animal welfare" perspective.

MolassesLass wrote: That's not the way its interpreted in at least one state, so I don't think that is a standard interpretation. Sorry, I just don't see how Norwegian Elkhounds have more claim to being "herding dogs" than, say, Boxers, or Giant Schnauzers vs. Rottweilers. I've read breed histories for all of them, and the herding link seems distant and somewhat tenuous for all. I'd also question that more than a handful of the breeds on that list have been "bred for herding" in living history. If we're very concerned about public image, then I'd suggest the ANKC should be looking to REDUCE the list of breeds... In the public image, GSDs are "protection dogs", and many of the other breeds aren't associated with herding at all. Is that right? Do you mean ANKC exhibits get marked harder than WSDA entries? Vickie wrote: Me too. I've heard of some ANKC "traditional herding breeds" really giving sheep a hard time, in a way that has made observers walk away upset. But I've also seen some "non-herding breeds" being gentle and quiet on sheep... I know which ones my OH would allow near his sheep. Maybe what we need is much tighter restrictions on behaviour at herding tests- so the chasing etc seen at instinct tests isn't allowed? Cacharel wrote: No, not really. If you can do a 3sheep course with your dog (whatever breed), I think most WSDA groups would welcome you. They don't restrict by breed. Why does anyone without livestock want to do it? Seems to me everyone else is doing it "for fun" .

Tracey, it doesn't actually say "TWO herding breeds"... I think the way its interpreted in WA, dogs that have one herding-breed parent are allowed, as are dogs that are obviously largely herding-breed but some bits of who knows what else. I think these "starters days" are catering not just to ANKC herding hopefuls, but also to people who just want to do something different with their dog. I don't think they ever intended going on to trial. That's a valid point. I guess its worth reminding people that this isn't something you should just "have a go" at without experienced supervision. I personally have no problems with any breed being able to do ANKC herding. And I think the "rules" don't really offer much protection against animal welfare concerns. I don't think PETA would look kindly on a Giant Schnauzer injuring or killing a sheep- I don't think the general public would think any differently about a Schnauzer or Kerry Blue Terrier damaging livestock to a Rottweiler or Boxer. Both of these breeds have some claims to "herding origins"- I don't know if they are more or less valid than the Schnauzer claim, but I doubt the public would think differently. This is very much like the concerns expressed by the WSDA people in my state about ANKC herding in general- the idea of GSDs hurting or harrassing sheep in an HIC test, and the RSPCA coming down on ALL "herding", include the WSDA, was large in their minds. And to be honest, some dogs (of all breeds) at ANKC tests I've seen DID appear to be giving sheep a hard time. Yes, that can happen even when WSDA people start young dogs- but it doesn't happen at public competitions, in full view. We had a "fun day" a while back where all sorts of dogs (non-herding) "had a go" on sheep, and they didn't do anything more dangerous than the HIC tests I've seen. I reckon if someone has a dog that's talented enough/well trained enough to compete with all the herding breeds at ANKC (or WSDA) tests, they should be able to. I have also wondered what would happen if someone trained, say, a pitbull to do yard trials or 3 sheep trials (hasn't Greg Prince famously claimed he could train a Labrador to do yard trials ) and so got their dog registered on merit with the local WSDA- would they then be able to get the dog on the Sporting Register, and do ANKC herding? Or are WSDA-reg'd dogs of any non-recognised breed (like koolies or huntaways) still ineligible for ANKC herding tests?

When you say "champ show", that's a conformation show, is it?

I seriously wouldn't bother- my competition obedience dog (who has excellent positions on signals, drop on recall, etc) is the one ratbag dog who won't stop on sheep... And a friend's dog (almost an Obedience Champion) was completely feral her first few times on sheep So you can't expect anything to hold when they first get on sheep. The pups seem to pick commands up really quickly when they are taught on sheep. Just makes more sense to them then, I think. If you want to practice something, I'd work on short recalls and sits beside you in distracting environments- maybe the middle of the dogpark etc.

I can't do Left and Right- keep forgetting to reverse it when the dog's the opposite side of the sheep to me, and then when we're in the yards, and the dogs and sheep are somewhere completely different, I get totally confused I use Round for clockwise, Back for anticlockwise (started the other way, but had to reverse them when I started working other people's dogs- no wonder my poor kelpie is so confused). Also Walk-up to come straight in (in a controlled manner, eg at obstacles), Push-up for just coming in to force (eg in yards), Steady to slow them down, Get Out to move them out wider on a flank, Get-off to make them reverse in a straight line, Speak for bark, Hop-up for backing and Right-up (or Up-Front) to send them up a long race. I use Over (Get Over) in yards to tell dog to jump a fence. Stop means stop- some dogs stand, some drop. I also tell dogs to drop or Lie Down if I REALLY want a lie down, and a Wait There tells them to chill out and hold their position (eg in yards). That'll Do is my finished-work signal. I also use Come Here to pull the dog towards me at obstacles etc. Most of our training is done on livestock- so dogs learn Stop by being blocked from moving- when they stop, they can go back to work. I did teach reverse (Get-Off) and walk-up to one of my city dogs at home- we used the garden hose, which he's obsessed with. I also started teaching his flanking commands and Get-Out with the rake in one hand and the hose in the other You don't need any of these commands for the basic herding tests. My friends' dogs had seen sheep once before their test days, and they went straight through HIC/HT/PT without any training. They had basic obedience, so the dogs had a basic recall and stop (sit or drop)- but no sheep experience. From what I've seen of the herding tests- the HIC really only tests 2 things- interest (even if they only look up from eating sheep poo half the time), and that your dog won't kill the sheep. Oh, and a TINY bit of control/relationship between you and dog. The HT looks for your dog wanting to move the sheep purposefully somewhere- doesn't even have to be towards you, they can drive or push the sheep along the fence. The PT asks for a dog with a little more control (stop, wait, recall) but its totally feasible to do it with little/no training. Having said that, I think its very wise to have a lesson or two on sheep before your first test- more for the handler, to make them less panicked. But the ANKC tests on their own are a nice introduction through the stages of starting a new dog. I just wish we had MORE of them in my area (its so far been the same couple of hard working people running all the tests). Good fun!

2 HIC tests, then 2 HT (Herding Test) passes, then 2 PT (Pretrial) test passes. Then trials! I think this website has most of the stuff you're after:Vicherding and the full rules are on ML's website: Herding Rules I think most dogs can do the levels up to an including PT without much/any training, as long as they will stop and recall. I have friends whose dogs had seen sheep once before their first ANKC herding test day, and had no exposure to sheep at all in between the test days (HIC-PT). Have fun

Thanks for explaining this stuff. Its very interesting. I've been watching the odd show here and there, and I'm assuming that different sizes and structures of dogs will trot at different speeds... I know my STCD has a very limited range of speed where he will trot- generally he paces or canters (I believe pacing is common for the breed). Some of our BCs and kelpies can trot beside a bike at quite high speeds (faster than I can jog), and look most fluent and comfortable at those higher speeds. So do judges factor in the speed people are running in assessing the dog's movement at the trot? Sometimes (from my very limited to exposure to showing) it seems that the speeds of gaiting in the show ring are somewhat limited to the range of the "middle-aged lady jog" , Do judges ever ask people to go faster? Should standards specify what "handler speed" the dogs are trotting at (even fast, medium pace, slow)? I'm probably not making a lot of sense...

Thanks for pointing that out. I bought Dogsteps a few years ago to help me understand some of this stuff, its a great book (by Rachel Page Elliot). Really illustrates some of the terms regarding structure and movement I've heard used. Highly recommended . The BCs and kelpies I've seen in the show ring have usually been run at a trot, at least sometimes a "flying trot". Many of the photos shown in mags and on websites to illustrate good movement seem to show "flying trots". Do the judges often ask for a walk? This is why it seems strange to have sheepdogs assessed at this gait- they don't move at a steady pace for hours when working, they are much more "stop and go". But I take your point that its the best gait for judges to assess structure. Is that why most breeds seem to be assessed at the trot? I have absolutely no show-ring experience, but I have often wondered if the particular pace seen in the showring showcases dogs that look best at that gait? For example, most of our working dogs do a nice smooth flying trot when running on lead beside a bike, or close beside the motorbike (will check what speed). But if I take them on lead and run around the backyard at a pace similar to what I see in the show ring, they tend to overreach and crab. Beside a bike, I can stretch out their stride and move from an overreaching trot to a smooth extended trot... To my inexperienced eye, successful BCs in the show ring seem to sometimes be on the short-legged side (compared to the working variety, anyway) and I have wondered if that's because those dogs look much sweeter at the trot at "ring pace"... I'd be interested to hear what experienced show people think.

They do work like that (depends a bit on breeding)- two of ours do it all the time. These aren't great photos, and not my dog, but this was a BIG dog who got "down and low", even in the yards - and worked beautifully... Different dog, but shows the typical "working dog" gait on a few sheep: Like this ?

editted- triple post