mjk05

Remind me where I claimed expert status? I'm not a vet either, which is why I suggested the OP might be best to consult one. But there's an awful lot of quasi-science floating about on the internet... and I'm constantly surprised by the poor level of knowledge in the general community about vaccines and the diseases they are designed to prevent, given that they affect us all.

Oh, I thought maybe we were also talking about distemper and hepatitis. Regardless, yes, parvo is still common, and dogs will probably be exposed to it when out and about. That might "boost their immune system" if they have adequate immunity, but if they don't, they could get it. Or bacteria... eg whooping cough. If your original premise was true, those of us exposed to these diseases regularly (in workplaces etc) would be MORE likely to be immune, since we are constantly being "challenged" by the disease, and therefore LESS likely to need boosters. But the reasoning is that a good proportion of the immunised community do lose effective immunity years after childhood vaccines. Most people don't get exposed to high risk situations (eg sick kids in large numbers, or people likely to have infectious disease) so their risk of catching it is small, and the consequences less serious (eg whooping cough- not uncommon in adults, but not as serious as in a child health nurse, for example). I'm not keen on over-vaccination- my older dogs don't get yearly vaccs, and I accept there are limitations to the usefulness of titre-testing (how much is enough?)- but its definitely a better option than not vaccinating and not testing, especially in dogs that are "out and about".

That's not true at all. Many of us do lose immunity after our childhood vaccinations, but aren't generally checked for immunity (unless you work in a field where its important you are immune). I had to have a number of immunisations redone in my 20s when I was in med school, after testing. The titre testing-immunity concept also seems a bit muddled above. I would discuss this with an imformed vet if I were the OP.

Yep, except she doesn't actually teach in any of the main classes when I've been there (might be involved occasionally in the higher classes). And you can't use clickers, and depending on the class, use of things like tugtoys can be discouraged. Almost all the other clubs in Perth (all that I know of) are positive reinforcement based too- so there is a wide choice of clubs across Perth, with a heap of experienced and successful instructors, and some have smaller class sizes, more relaxed structures, more or less trial focus, and lead in to agility etc. You could train at least 5 days a week at positive-training clubs if you had time. And if trial specific training is required, Sue Hogben does private lessons which are unbelievably valuable, highly recommended. We're very lucky over here! Lots of hidden treasures, some less well-advertised than others, but a heap of excellent options.

Yep, but not formal obedience. You can teach all the control and teamwork you will ever need just by training agility, no need to do formal obedience if you don't want to. Lots of clubs now have agility-specific foundation classes, for puppies or young dogs- so you can get started with the important basics with agility in mind (things like working on both sides, targetting, hind end awareness, sending on and recalling, and some basic equipment performance).

Nup- I used to, did 8 obedience trials a few years back (6 for one dog's CDX, and 2 extra to finish a 2nd dog's CD) but then just didn't have enough free weekends to keep trialling in both. So we moved over to just agility, and my new dogs aren't doing any formal obedience at all. They learn basic manners, and general stuff like targetting and waits for lead-outs etc, but its not necessary to have formal competition-type obedience to do agility (heelwork, stand for exam, retrieves and the like). My older dog loved his obedience, and knows most of his UD work, so I still think about getting back into the obedience ring to do that one day, but he is 10 now, so I might wait until he retires from agility. If you don't really enjoy obedience much, just stick to agility. Even with a puppy, there are loads of agility-specific basics you can start training.

I have a working border collie puppy that's so well-behaved I have to keep checking she's still alive. She housetrained herself (following the other dogs), hasn't chewed much (if I say a quiet "ahh" she will drop what she's chewing and never touch it again), and settles quietly in her basket when people are busy. She's lying on her mat on the floor now, with my DVD collection spread around her, chewing on a bone. I'd probably prefer a naughtier pup in many ways, but tonight she did redeem herself a bit by shrieking like a banshee at agility training, then pulling her leash off the stake and chasing me and another dog into the middle of a course. But generally, even with little exercise and no training, she's so easy and quiet you wouldn't know she was around.

The "gulping"- could be a backwards sneeze?

What worked for me with a similar problem with a puppy (kept waking and crying at 4am, then just wanted to play) was setting my alarm for a time before she would wake up (ie 2 or 3am), taking her outside for a wee, absolutely no playing, just on leash standing around until she weed, then back inside and to bed again. She'd whimper a bit when returned to her crate, but went off to sleep just like she did earlier in the evening- force of habit, I think, and then she'd go back into a new sleep cycle. And later in the morning we all got up at a more reasonable hour. Basically this stopped the habit of puppy crying for attention, me not being sure if she needed a wee, so giving in and getting up. By waking her up before she did it herself I could reassure myself that she was empty, and "reset" her for another period of sleep. Gradually I set my alarm for later and later (over a period of weeks), until the early morning wee-time was the same as getting-up time.

WA. I've never trialled interstate (obviously- I've only just got brave enough to enter a few trials here, and we're hardly setting the trials scene alight :D ). But from what I've heard/read there are a few regional differences- yard courses, esp in states with dedicated yard trialling fraternities (basically most people here do all types, or they don't get many trials) and judging variations (what constitutes a cross in a yard run, overcommanding, judging a dog that works outside the race etc), plus things like let-out techniques. Some references with yard/utility rules Yard/Utility rules and arena rules/course: Arena rules Arena course and the Supreme: Course Rules

Well, things vary a bit between states, but there are 3 main types of sheepdog trials in Australia: 3 Sheep or Arena trials: the type of trial most people have seen in Australia, have been on TV occasionally. 3 sheep, as name suggests, are set out at one end of an "arena" (could be a footy oval, or a paddock, etc- varying size and landscape). Dog is cast from the peg, fetches sheep down the ground as straight as possible, then around peg, and then as handler walks a set course (down ground, around peg, to each obstacle) the dog has to keep the sheep within a set distance of the handler (ie in a marked corridor). At the obstacles, handler stands in a prescribed spot (eg rings on ground) to the side of the obstacle, and dog has to move sheep through or into pen. No crossing is allowed at any time- which can make for some short runs for beginners Yard trials: Basically a course designed to test dog's ability to work sheep through yards. The sorts of courses and the rules vary a bit between states, so I'm told. But for example, the Novice course we ran this weekend involved going into yards- dog empties sheep from one small pen into a large yard, then moves sheep from another small pen into that empty one. Then you climb fence and dog moves sheep across large yard to clear a path to the other side, so you can walk across to the forcing pen, where you open the gate and dog has to push sheep into the small force pen. You can't shut gates until the sheep are totally clear, and once the pens are full, your dog has to go around to the next gate to clear it before you can walk over there. Then you force the sheep into the drenching race, which may require dog to back up race to fill it. More gate shutting and opening, and sheep go up into a truck- which often involved dog having to back up sheep on a sloping ramp, into the back of a truck- then down into another small pen, then dog holds sheep and pushes them into a drafting race, where handler drafts out set number of sheep. Points off for things like inefficient work, sheep breaking, crossing in the large yard, etc. Utility trials: Yard + paddock. We have all our yard trials held combined with a utility trial, but I think they are less common in other states. Starts out like an arena trial- handler at post sends dog to cast and fetch 5 sheep- brings them down to handler, then they walk over to yards, run a yard course, then the 5 sheep drafted off at the end of the yard course are taken out into the paddock, and walked through a set of obstacles (same rules as for 3sheep), finishing with the pen. Utility is a bit nicer for beginners- a cross in the paddock is just points off, and if you mess up an obstacle, the judge will just give you zero for that obstacle and you can go on to the next one (in 3sheep you can lose all your time and points on one obstacle). Great utility dogs are awesome to watch- adapting from the up-close power of the yards to the finesse and speed of the paddock work. I know some states have cattle dog trials too, and short course trials etc, so they would be different. And then there's the Trans-Tasman type courses which are sometimes run, which include driving sections as per the NZ courses. The ANKC trials are different again (A, B, C courses) - and pretty well described in the rules.

Nah, not really. If anything, yard dog trials have the most driving of any Australian sheepdog trial. The dogs are often pushing sheep away from the handler (out of pens, up races, into other pens, out of the way of the handler's path) and crossing isn't the mortal sin it is in 3 sheep trials. There's only one place in the average yard course the dog can't cross (in the main yard)- the rest of the time it has to work between sheep and handler as well as fetch. I often hear that Australian trial dogs (ie 3 sheep dogs) can't do ANKC-type work, because they can't drive (aren't allowed to or something) and its not true- those that are also farm dogs have to drive frequently, and in my state the majority of 3sheep dogs also do utility trials, where they have to do a yard course and paddock course.

It could be a vaccine reaction- 2 of our recent litter got lumps on/between shoulder blades after their first vaccination. They were both quite large lumps, and the tiny runt puppy had an absolutely huge lump, I thought it was an abscess for a while. They lasted over a week, and then started to subside. They were seen by a vet, who said it was just a vaccine reaction, and wasn't worried. I'd suggest a follow-up vet visit, just to put your mind at rest.

It may depend on your local groups' rules. In WA I don't think we have any restrictions on breed. Dogs must have WAWSDA registration (based on pedigree or performance) to enter Open trials, but anyone can enter the Encourage/Farmers classes- crossbreeds have entered, I know Aussies have competed, and I've toyed with the idea of entering my cattle dog Are you going to have a go?

In WA a significant number of the top triallers win both 3sheep and yard trials with their border collies. Same dogs, same handlers... Maybe its because we don't have just yard trials, they are run as part of utility trials, and not many of them, so most triallers do both utility and arena trials. The last trial we were at, the yard and utility finalists were at least 50% border collies, more so in the utility, and almost all of them are dogs that will be out on the 3sheep arena this weekend.

Why don't you guys get a group together and go to an upcoming yard trial? It could be a great weekend getaway! I understand (Wally may have a better idea) there are LOTS of yard trials around Victoria. Even if you're not keen on competing at your first trial, its a brilliant way to learn by watching and helping out (there'll be no complaints at a group of extra helpers ) and you might get some invites to training days or other trials. And you can rustle up a bunch of country competitors to come to any "city yard trials" I think Vic and NSW have a heap of yard trials compared to WA (we have just a handful of utility trials, incorporating yard runs), so there are lots of dates and venues to choose from. Contact the VWSDA, they'd let you know!

Come to WA, you'll meet a heap of 3sheep trial dogs that do that every day... 100% agree with you, Kelpie-i. I'm all in favour of having more city-based trials- it would raise the profile of the sport, the dogs and the work, and might help educate the public. If the city trials were well attended by country folk, or just by the usual crowd of WSDA triallers, wouldn't city people be just as nervous about competing as if they went to a country trial :rolleyes: And we'd probably find the same group of triallers winning. Its also sometimes difficult to find the space to host a trial in town- the area needed for the trial course, the area needed for camping, dog exercise, and then getting proper trial sheep (not ones used for training) in large enough quantities for all the competitors. I'm all for more city trials, but I don't think they need to be easier or aimed at city people specifically. Just an average WSDA trial or 6 close to town would be a good way of publicising the sport and educating the public, but if city people want to have a go, they should head out bush. The farmers don't bite (hard ) and once you have a go, its not so bad!

That's a bit of a generalisation There are some 3sheep-specific dogs that probably can't handle "real" work, but in WA, a large number of our most successful 3sheep trials dogs work every day on "real" properties. My OH's best 3sheep dog regularly works thousands of sheep through yards (and he's a border collie ). Why do they need to be easier? Yard/utility trials already have the farmers/encourage class, which is perfect for beginners, the judges help you and you can walk out to help the dog on the cast. ANKC trials are another available option- they (over here anyway) definitely aren't just show people, and the yearly subs for the ANKC aren't much different to those for the WSDA. Basically, I don't see why we need anything other than maybe more trials close to the city and held just on weekends for us weekday workers. If people want something with "babysteps" of progression, much easier initial levels, the ANKC caters to that already. It might not be "yard style", but the small arenas they use for the Test levels and even Started A are similar to yard trials, and its a good first step up towards WSDA trialling. If people are prepared to drive a little further, they can just jump into the WSDA trials. They can start off going along to watch, help out (there's lots to learn from helping let-out/pull-off sheep) and then have a go in Encourage. Our regular trialling community is probably about 1/4 city-based people, with city-based dogs, and that's how they got going. Some of them are regular Open winners now. Don't you think that would happen? If the city trials were easier, aimed only at city dogs, and the country "big guns" didn't attend, some people would only do city trials, and if their dogs were doing, chances are they'd breed them, sell to other city-based people, and we'd risk ending up with a "working-bred-lite" line of dogs. At least at the existing WSDA trials, people can mix it with the farmers who trial, compete against the dogs who work every day, and take advantage of the knowledge and experience of some of those lifetime stockmen. City people shouldn't feel intimidated or nervous about going to country trials- everyone is friendly and welcoming in general, and since city people already take their place in the winners, they can hold their own. Its always nerve-wracking to be a beginner, but that's the case anywhere. As this article says, city people are already out there doing it, so anyone feeling nervous won't be alone :rolleyes: (oh, and having real "hard" working dogs take their holidays up here, as well as a couple of pretty high-drive working-bred dogs who live here, I think most working dogs fit in fine in the city... but that's another discussion )

Would you ban country people from city-based trials? Because I know a lot of "country folk" who love the one big city trial we have, and would enjoy having more (good excuse to squeeze in some shopping ) Or would you have easier courses/judging for city people? I dunno about the "nervous" factor, I had a less-than-stellar trial debut just recently, and I didn't find it any more embarrassing or intimidating at a country based trial than I expect I would in the city. The country lot are very friendly and supportive of city people, they think its where much of the future trialling community will come from. And there are already ANKC herding trials (which I've also done) which offer a gentle introduction to working dogs on livestock. That's almost entirely city-based people. Well yes, that's what I was alluding to, and I reckon it would be exacerbated by having a huge trialling scene of people and dogs that had never done "real" work, and just trained and bred for the trial scene. Dogs that win trials will tend to be bred from- if they are owned by people that still work them for a living, chances are they will still be "true working dog lines". So I'd like to see a balance maintained in trials, with some people doing it with their city-based pets (like me), and others with their daily work dogs... all in the same trials, all appreciating each others' presence and ability :rolleyes:

Nope, I'm one of them!! Probably will have some city-based trials everywhere pretty soon, which would be great! But I'd hate to see trialling become almost entirely city-based or even non-farming people... Trials need to stay grounded in the daily work to maintain their relevance, and to preserve the real value of the dogs bred for it. Plus if trials lose their link with rural people, farmers will lose their interest in the working dog. That's already a threat to good working dogs- the idea that utes/bikes can replace a good working dog :rolleyes: I'd hate to see sheepdog trialling become "just a sport", with no relevance to the "real" daily work of a sheepdog. Much cooler if they can remain a venue for city and country to meet

That's increasingly true here... most of the triallers are still farmers (at least part time) or retired farmers, but there are an increasing number of people like me, based in the city but with working-bred dogs who train and compete in sheepdog trials. Its still hard to get to trials without missing one day (most are Friday/Saturday +/- Sunday) if you work "normal" hours, but many farmers these days find it too hard to find time to trial, let alone train. And often I think people who only spend a few hours each week training their dogs for trials have some advantage over those whose dogs work every day, but rarely train specific trial skills- especially in the 3sheep department. I see more and more people getting working-bred dogs in town, and getting into sheepdog training for fun, then getting hooked and sucked into trialling :rolleyes:

Sounds exactly like kennel cough. It is going around Perth at the moment, especially around the agility circles. First day or so they just hack or gag occasionally, sounds exactly they have something stuck in their throat or just a scratched throat etc. Sometimes its a mild case and doesn't get much worse, usually they start coughing much more over the next day or so. Its usually just diagnosed on symptoms, and treatment is supportive (rest, warm, no exertion) until the cough is gone (5-10 days). Sometimes antibiotics are necessary for a week or so. Dogs should be kept isolated (no walks/park/training) until about a week after coughing stops. If your dog has been playing at the dog park or at training classes in the last week or so, PLEASE let people know, so they can watch out for signs and keep their dogs home. For most dogs its a mild illness, for those with little pups it can be serious.

I dunno- I'm fairly well-paid by community standards, and in a 12 month period recently I was faced with emergency vet bills totally near $10,000. That's: -one dog with a sudden critical illness, requiring an intensive care admission and some expensive investigations (she died anyway ) - finding an injured cat (run over) and treating and adopting her - one dog who was attacked and significantly injured by another dog - a couple of minor things- severe beesting reactionsx2, grassseeds up nose x2, suspected poisoning, urology issues with older dog- all requiring either admission +/or anaesthesia and investigations +/or emergency centre visit, which = big bucks - and just recently a cruciate injury to a young dog- which cost over $1000 for the initial investigations, and an estimated $3500 for surgery. Fortunately I took out pet insurance mid-way through all of that, and the cruciate surgery may not be necessary (fingers crossed)- but for a while there I had the credit card maxed out, and was going to have to sell my car if anything else cropped up. I don't have a mortgage or a family, so I don't know how I would have coped if I did. Yes, we should expect unexpected bills, and of course I would find a way to pay- but sometimes it really is hard to cope with. I'm told that many vets will draw up payment plans for good customers with big unexpected bills- but I have found pet insurance worthwhile, just in this past year.

100% agree with both of you there, I still can't see much consistency in rules or techniques, and I've trained there for 7 years. I used to recommend it to everyone, but now I think some of the smaller clubs have a lot of extra benefits for both the novice dog owner and those wanting to go on to trialling. Its just a matter of looking around and checking out different clubs, finding something that suits. They are all good value for money.

I think both Hope and Fox will be just fine for the HIC tests- and no, there's nothing I can see preventing a dog from barking while working in ANKC trials or tests. The standard for the HIC tests is very basic- its just about interest and very basic instinct ( :p )- they aren't expected to be perfect or even consistently good. Enter them both, and don't worry about it- you'll be fine, and have a great time!