GreatDanz

I have listened, I have heard all the same "reasons" for not feeding RAW before. I was one of those who didn't believe the benefits either! I fed kibble, and one of my Danes had serious allergies. So with him I had to switch for his health. My other guy did "just fine" on kibble, so I didn't see any reason to switch him. Well, Java wanted to know why his brother was getting all the good stuff! Anyway, I ended up switching Java over to raw too. I never expected to see such a huge improvement since kibble seemed to be "just fine" for him. Well, he brightened up, his coat looks amazing, no more bad breath, no more doggie smell, and his energy level is much better than it ever was on kibble. So I did a ton of research, talked to other kibble to raw converters. The benefits are real, and they are the same for the majority of dogs fed raw. I have NEVER found a SCIENTIFIC study that has PROVEN kibble to be better than raw for the average domestic dog. So once again, I will request that someone point out this study that I have been unable to find, I would be very interested in seeing it. On a side note, I'm not sure where your animosity is coming from, care to share?

Mel, your link doesn't work. All dogs may look different on the outside, but on the inside they are very much the same. Providing your dog with the "required" care and providing your dog with the best care are two very different things. This thread was not about discussing different feeding methods, it's about my challenge to anyone here to try a raw diet for two months. I stand by my convictions. I have provided scientific data on how a raw diet is best for a domestic dog. How is that 'down your throat'? I have asked for one scientific study, one NOT funded by kibble companies or non-scientific drivel, to show that raw is detrimental to your dog's health. Still no takers to my challenge?

Adult apes and adult humans have very similar digestive systems, the only difference is that the human intestines are longer. You can't make a blanket statement that a dog will be healthier on a Raw diet because quite simply not all dogs can consume a raw diet therefore it is not beneficial to them. Don't get me wrong, I feed my girl raw meat but I also give her 'Missing Link' as well. Our environments are so different from the wild, we have concerns such as polution that can deplete an animals minerals/proteins/trace elements, sometimes a little something extra is neccessary in some dogs. "Adult apes and adult humans have very similar digestive systems, the only difference is that the human intestines are longer." Interesting information, but I am not sure how it applies here. "You can't make a blanket statement that a dog will be healthier on a Raw diet because quite simply not all dogs can consume a raw diet therefore it is not beneficial to them." I can, and I did. The percentage of dogs that cannot consume a raw diet is incredibly small, and I have not yet heard a single medical reason in this discussion for not feeding a dog raw. "Don't get me wrong, I feed my girl raw meat but I also give her 'Missing Link' as well." Excellent! ;) ;) "Our environments are so different from the wild, we have concerns such as polution that can deplete an animals minerals/proteins/trace elements, sometimes a little something extra is neccessary in some dogs." Show me a scientific study that proves this conclusively and I will agree 100%.

"I dont think that we can really compare pet food, even a raw diet, to what wolves eat in the wild. We buy pre killed food for our animals, and you must trust the source of this meat. Do you know the grade of the meat? Has it had dye in it, to distinguish between human grade and pet grade? Where has it been? How old is it? How has it been handled? Does it contain contaminents (both environmental and from the animal it came from?" Don't take this as a tort reply, but how can you be worried about fresh meat from the grocery store when you feed your dog kibble?

That's right, the Gray Wolf lives in the wild, therefore millions of years of evolution has given them a digestive system that functions perfectly on raw meat. In contrast, kibble has only been around for at the most 100 years. Also note, I am only comparing domestic dogs to Gray Wolves. Gray Wolves hunt, they are Carnivores. Domestic dogs are most genetically and physiologically similar to these animals. Any specialist will tell you that the internal workings of these wolves and dogs are nearly identical. So, you see, comparing humans and apes is not at all like comparing Dogs and Gray Wolves. "I like a raw diet but I don't think it's the only way to go for a healthy well adjusted dog." No, your dog will just be HEALTHIER on a raw diet.

;) That is SO wonderful!!!

The reason we do this is because genetically and physiologically the domestic dog and gray wolves are nearly identical. As I stated previously, even their DNA is 99.8% identical. Wolves hunt in packs, they will go for anything from mice to moose.

Yup, you got it. The raw diet will assist in improving their immune systems, and in turn, there will be a signifiant decrease in ailments such as allergies. "Obviously the raw diet is great and helps them stay healthy... IMO its the easiest way to feed dogs and keep them in good weight / shape and let them feel like they are getting a good feed... " I agree 100% "I would NEVER feed my dogs kibble... That's WONDERFUL! "but I also know that raw is not a miracle cure that will fix all their health concerns.... PHEW, it's a good thing I never said that!

Dan, do you feed your dogs raw?

Here's a good site with some Q&A's on senior canine behavioral changes: http://www.vetinfo.com/dogold.html

Wolves do not eat the stomach contents of their prey. With small mammals such as rabbits they might, but that is only becuase it's not worth the effort of trying to remove the contents. http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/nov20...87753.Zo.r.html http://www.dogaware.com/wolfpark.html http://www.kerwoodwolf.com/HUNTING&MEALS.htm http://onibasu.com/archives/cl/86.html Raw diets are generally much lower in protein than kibble. For example, here is the nutrition information for a chicken back with skin: Water g 58.1 24 0.82 Energy kcal 319 0 0 Energy kj 1335 0 0 Protein g 14.05 24 0.19 Total lipid (fat)g 28.74 24 0.75 Ash g 0.64 24 0.03 Carbohydrate, by difference g 0 0 0 Fiber, total dietary g 0 0 0 Sugars, total g 0 0 0 The first number is value per 100 grams of edible portion, the second is number of data points, and the last is the standard error value. A chicken back is 14.05% protein, which means that per 100 grams, 14.05 grams are protein.

It's not WRONG per say, but not necessary. Naturally, dogs have no way to pulverize their own veggies, humans can with their flat molars and grinding motion of their jaw. Not only do dogs not have flat molars, but they can only move their jaws up and down, not side to side. Does that answer your question?

Looking through the archives of this and other doggie discussion board, I see a theme. Gas, diarrhea, hair loss, rashes, obesity, dry skin and coat, yeast and staph infections, low energy...... I personally have dealt with rashes, staph infection, and chronic diarrhea in my dogs. I know that many of you are skeptical, but hear me out. I speak from my own experience and years of experience from other dog owners. Diets full of grains, sugar and chemicals can be the root cause for many of these conditions, they most definitely were with my boys. First some facts about canines: Taxonomy - Dog Kingdom - Animalia Phylum - Chordata SubPhylum - Vertebrata Class - Mammalia Order - Carnivora Family - Canidae Genus - Canis <-- Scientific Name Species - domesticus Notice that Domestic Dogs and Wolves are of the same species, Canis lupis and both are in the Carnivora (Carnivore) family. Genetically, the domestic dog's closest cousin is the Gray Wolf, dogs and wolves share 99.8% of their mitochondrial DNA. Dogs and wolves can freely interbreed and produce fertile offspring--even little dogs like Westies and Chihuahuas are capable of this. Now everyone go look at your dog's teeth. You'll notice that their mouth is full of large, sharp pointy teeth. See how none of their teeth are flat? They are all designed to rip, tear, and scissor their food. The canine digestive system is comprised of a smooth unsacculated colon and a short small intestine. Canines do not normally produce the necessary enzymes to digest starch, cellulose (encases nutrients in plant matter), and carbohydrates. In order for these items to digest, they must spend some time in the digestive system fermenting, the canine digestive system is simply too short for this to happen. So what does this all mean? Based on the above scientific facts, a domestic dog is naturally designed to eat and digest meat food sources. Their teeth rip, tear and crush through meat and bones, their digestive systems are designed to digest meat, and years of evolution have resulted in an animal almost genetically identical to the modern Gray Wolf (exclusively a carnivore). No go over to your "super premium" bag of kibble. What do you see? Claims of healthy 'human grade' meat sources, fresh vegetables? What about all those OTHER ingredients? Rice, wheat, corn..... Well, I've already shown you that scientifically dogs cannot digest these. So why are they IN there??? Because they are cheaper filler than meat. What about home cooked diets, those are healthy too, right? Wrong. Cooking alters the minerals, vitamins, proteins and fats in meat. Your dog has a greater chance of suffering from a deficiency on a home cooked diet than any other diet. Besides, if you don't cook the meat, you don't have to spend more $$ on supplements that must be added back in. As long as meat AND bones AND organs are fed, you have a completely balanced canine diet. Just ask the Wolves! So here's my challenge to you. Put away your kibble, supplements and veggies. Feed your dog a diet of raw meat, bones and organs for JUST TWO MONTHS. Challenge the kibble company's claim of "healthy 'human grade' meat sources, fresh vegetables", why not just feed those food sources yourself. Why must we render, overcook, and overprocess these food items before we can feed them to our dogs? I can guarantee that the majority of you will see a significant decrease in the ailments listed at the very beginning of my post. Your dogs will be healthier, happier and more energetic than you've ever seen. You'll be able to do away with putting your dogs under anesthesia for teeth cleaning, raw fed dogs have the benefit of Nature's Toothbrush. Did you know that more than 85% of kibble fed dogs have periodontal disease by the age of 3? [Penman, S. and P. Emily. 1991. Scaling, Polishing, and Dental Home Care. Waltham International Focus. 1:3 2-8.] If you cannot let go of feeding veggies, make them a small part of the diet and puree them into a liquid. Remember, dogs cannot digest cellulose, and unless it is pureed they will not derive any nutrition from veggies. Anyone willing to take my challenge?

Meat is a generic term used to describe any part of ANY animal besides parts such as fur, hooves and stomach contents. Did you know that "meat" can include euthanized cats and dogs? That also includes the chemicals that were used to kill them. So based on the ingreadients, I can say with confidence that NO, this is NOT a healthy diet.

I agree Jeanne, and there is also some pretty compelling information out there about how they treat their test animals. Just do a search on the internet, you'll see! Have any of you tried Innova? It looks like it is available in Australia, and it's really one of the better kibble brands.

Yea, all that dog food, and I still fee RAW! :D Seriously, I suggested the food mix because many places ship it, and the containers are usually pretty light so it shouldn't be very expensive.

Have you considered doing a grain-free meat mix such as Sojos Europa Grain-Free Dog Food Mix? Then all you have to do is mix in some meat and you have a complete meal! Much simpler than a raw diet, but at least you KNOW what's going into your dog. :D **edited to add: I don't like the "meat meal" in the food you mentioned. You should always be aware of generic terms like "meat".

In my opinion, I don't really understand how any of these foods can claim to be for dogs with allergies. Most dogs develop food allergies on grains and corn. This would definitely negate Nutrience, the first four ingredients are "Lamb meal, ground rice, rice bran, chicken fat". Lamb meal is the only good ingredient of the three. Ground rice and rice bran are #'s 1 and 2, that means the MAJORITY of this kibble is rice. It's not even whole grain brown rice, just plain 'ole rice, BIG allergy catalyst. Lastly they add chicken fat, the sole purpose of that ingredient is to make the rice taste good so the dogs will eat it. Franky if RAW or BARF are not an option for you, I would find a food that doesn't contain rice or corn, and has meats for AT LEAST the first two ingredients, three of the first four is even better. Hope your baby feels better soon, I know from experience that an itchy dog is a miserable one!

Unfortunately "roo" is not common in the US! :D

Hi Jeanne, I now feed my boys primarily RAW, this consists of meat, bones and organs. I do give them about 1/2 cup of meat/veggie mix with each meal, this is the only way I can find the more exotic meats like rabbit and cornish hen. They also get some raw green tripe with every meal. Lastly, they get mac and cheese once a week, I use that to hide their fish and raw eggs, otherwise my older guy would never eat it!

Hello fellow Dane luvr! I used Eagle Pack with my older guy and all I got for it was mountains of mushy poop! He would 'go' probably 3-4 times a day. Needless to say, EP didn't last for long in my house. On a side note, you'd be much better off with EP than with the Eukaneuba food, it's probably way too high in protein and has poor quality ingredients.