Prydenjoy

But punishment would correct the behavior rather than supress it? I'm not sure how that would work? The dog you mention seems to have been proofed against distractions, this is different to counter conditioning where the dogs emotional state has been altered, the dog associating the feared object with good things instead of bad things. Berri used to be fear aggressive to children (I know I've mentioned this before), now he actually SEEKS them out, he even went up and gave a toddler a lick the other day. I still wouldn't trust him alone with a strange kid, but I no longer freak out about how he's going to react when I see a kid, rather I see it as yet another opportunity for reinforcement.

Black Bronson, nobody has suggested distraction as a training technique. What has been suggested is counter conditioning, and training alternate behavior (calmness and focus on the owner) using a high rate of reinforcement (which I guess could be misinterperated as distraction). In my case there were times where we did cross Berri's threshold (along footpaths running between two yards with dogs in them, for example) when I used distraction as a last resort until I could get past the situation - It was not a part of the training so much as a way to get through (ideally I shouldn't have been walking up that path, but towards the end of the first week I no longer had to use the distraction because he knew to look at me for reinforcement anyway).

So true!! I didn't read all that much of it actually, I don't have a paper copy and was reading it on the internet, unless something is really fascinating I wont spend all too much time reading it on the net because there is so many other things to look at it's easy to get distracted! I'm sure if I had a paper copy I'd read the whole thing, but I'm not sure I'm going to buy it - I've got a long list of books on my wish list, it would probably be a fair way down the wish if I was going to buy it

Not nationally recognised in Australia, but that's not to say it's not a great way to further your knowledge and build on your interest. I've heard lots of wonderful things about the course, and if I'm going to be putting so much time and energy into something I want it to be something I'm going to enjoy. I know I'm not making Muckypups job of choosing any easier by adding to the list of courses to look into, I thought long and hard before coming to the decision myself, but I'm 99% sure I've made the right choice Email the co ordinator if you have any questions, he's most helpful.

Look into the CASI course, I'm about to start that one. It's positive based, but much more in depth than Delta

I'm not sure what you're saying/asking here, Jeanne. Are you asking "what makes a dog dominant"? No, wasn't asking anything, just making a statement that I thought the non linear dog theory book (what I read of it, anyway) was just a struggle to describe behaviors in ways other than attributing them dominance. Wanted to, was too busy stressing over getting the house cleaned for today My point exactly, she waffles on and just states her observations, dancing around not using the term dominance the whole time, all the while describing dominant behaviors. Mind you there were some very interesting points... that could have been made in about half as many words... So what is her definition of bite inhibition? A dog that demonstrates a soft bite if provoked, or a dog that never bites at all? Nearly every dog will bite if it is pushed past its threshold, and not all are taught bite inhibition. And didn't she say that there are aggressive breeds that you may be lucky enough not to touch it's hair trigger aggression, in that case how can the dog be labelled aggressive if it has never actually bitten anyone? All hypothetical questions, of course If a mother has high stress hormones during her pregnancy this will affect the base stress rate in her offspring. In humans this can lead to mental illness and all kinds of worries. Many factors interplay to produce a personality and "base temperament", including genetics, prenatal and post natal health and stress, upbringing, classical and operant learning. Of course a litter of pups is never going to be born with the same temperament as each other, that's genetics, doesn't mean to say that the stress of the mother does not play some kind of a role.

Great post NaturallyWild. I read a little of that book, but didn't continue because it seemed she really struggled to find any other explaination that could possibly describe dominance related behavior, the explainations seemed to waffle on and really seemed to simply describe the behavior more than actually getting to the roots of what was driving the behavior in most cases.

This is why I never recommend punishers when trying to get a dog used to being around other dogs in one way or another (in this example it is using fear aggression, but the same association can be made by a friendly dog trying to play): http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2...gaggression.htm Desensitising the dog through positive reinforcement, by setting it up for success and gradually working on the behavior, is a much safer solution.

I don't completely agree, particularly with possessive aggression. In observations of wild wolves a more submissive wolf will resource guard from a more dominant wolf and this is frequently accepted by the more dominant wolf. I guess that's where Pats comment that "possession IS the law" comes in Berri never tries to take anything from Mango, even though he is Mr Alpha Wannabe and she's so soft and submissive.

All the best

I don't completely agree, particularly with possessive aggression. Sometimes, I believe, this is due to insecurities which have got nothing to do with dominance. One example of a dog displaying dominant behavior to their owner I saw recently was a dog that barked at its owner to throw the ball. She was distracted and didn't throw it straight away and the dog jumped up and started biting her hand (so she promptly picked up the ball and threw it). Apparently he does it all of the time. It was quite clear who was king of the castle in that house. That said, it was also a learned behavior. All these things interplay and you can rarely blame dominance alone on any problem behavior (that I can think of off the top of my head anyway).

The clicker itself is not used as a distraction It's used as a marker, to let the dog know that at that moment what they are doing is good, and that a reward is coming. I can't say where to buy a clicker, I can't even get my hands on one! I have one that I've had for years and am paranoid that some day I'll lose it and wont be able to play shaping games on rainy days Speak to trainers in your area, vets and pet shops. I'm sure one of them will be able to point you in the right direction. I'd also google and youtube clicker training, there is a LOT of information out there, as well as a few good books. Probably the best book I've read for beginning clicker training is called Click for Joy.

Thanks luvsablue, I'll take on those tips. I'll try training myself seperately to the dog, so he doesn't have to endure my stuff ups

Wonderful advise Beckie, I'll keep it in mind!! Footwork, ack, for the first time I've actually begun to take notice of what I'm doing and have realised I am completely inconsistent! So I've been trying to form habits over the past few days but they just aren't forming quickly enough Poor Berri just does what he's told, regardless of how hopeless I am

Isn't that what McConnell is trying to do in her blog? I think the whole blog is worth reading before jumping to conclusions to what it is about. She has not said that it is not applicable to dogs, read it for yourself and see. Kelpie, I think your Delta trainer needs to get herself a cat

Well said Staranais, glad your dog bounced back ok! Our poor Tessa lived a life of depression, moping around miserably. When we finally started positive training with her it took over a year for her to get that "staffy smile" going (she was a mutt, but part staffy). She never truly bounced back but seemed a lot more comfortable and happy when we stopped trying to physically assert our dominance over her and use harsh corrections when she wasn't "obedient". We were misguided and I wish we could have provided her with a better start to life. Erny, no one is saying that the word dominance doesn't apply to dogs, I use it myself sometimes but only when I have time to debunk the myths that go with it. I would never simply say to someone "be dominant to your dog" and leave it at that, saying "be a leader to your dog" I find is more specific and allows people to conjur up images to not allowing their dogs run rampant through their house, without the images of alpha rolls etc to creep in so readily.

He's pretty tough, I think with a proper harness he'd be ok with a slightly heavier clip, not a massive one though

It works both ways... Staranais, your poor puppy! I hope it went on to lead a happy life. I always have a laugh when Mango is doing something some might coin "dominant", she is the least dominant pup in the world but still some of her behaviors would be refered to, by some, as "dominant", I'll message my sister and say something like "oh Mango growled at me while we were playing, should I alpha roll her to re assert my dominance?" and we'll both have a good laugh

Sorry to hear you've had such a bad experience kezzzza. Seems like there is a need for more positive classes with NON Delta people, so that the method can be taught properly!

It's true it's not the term dominance itself that is "wrong", but the way people have used it over the years. I understand that dominance is only a description of a relationship, I guess it's all the baggage that has caused it to be referred to as "the concept formally known as..."

Oh that's a good idea, I'll do that. Goodie, hope we pass!

Thanks, it's not easy to find people to run their hand over your dog, I just haven't found myself in the situation where I've had the urge to ask someone "can you please pat my dog?". I think perhaps it is something we should do at training, taking turns at running hands over dogs, so they get lots of practice with lots of different people. Do you get your results on the day or do you have to wait for them?

I don't know the stats, but as long as there is one dog suffering that is one too many in my opinion. I know about 15 years ago I was encouraged to roll my puppy on her back to establish my "dominance" over her. If she growled during play it was because she was trying to assert her dominance and must be punished. None of it was fair on her, I feel guilty now for buying into such stupidity, but I thought it was the right thing to do. I only wish I knew then what I know now, and she would have led a much happier life.

Thanks Erny, I'll think more about whether we actually need a long line and if so I'll contact you and Steve and work out which would be better for Berri. I think a long line with a harness would be a good idea, as Berri walks on a loose leash and as soon as there's any tension he'll turn and come back to me. A harness would make it clear to him that it is a different "exercise" and different rules apply. I have a cat harness that I used to use on him but don't like it much, I had a rogz harness that I used on Montie (the harness and the dog are both with mum now) which I really really liked, but they don't stock them here. So I guess I'd need a new harness too - The ones at the pet shop here are too bulky though.

Thanks. He's not actually been trained "for a trial", just attended the regular classes. He's only attempted the figure 8 like twice, and stand for exam has only been a light touch on the back so as not to frighten him. I do hope the judge goes easy on us!