Prydenjoy

I don't particularly like head halters either, much prefer the easy walk harness, but in the case that the dog is too strong for the owner they can help control an unruly dog. I never suggested that everyone should put their dog on a head halter, just as no one here is suggesting every dog owner buy a prong collar and use it. Honestly I don't see why people here can't just accept that not everyone has the same opinions as them. Seems like a whole lot of ranting and raving for the sake of it really. It's not getting anyone anywhere, nor is it answering the OP's question.

Hmm it's a shame people will pick and choose what they want to hear from a post without actually acknowledging everything that was said. I hope the OP got the information she needed in amongst all the OT garbage

Get a prong collar and go see someone who will help them use it :D Seriously, no one has said that other methods don't work. If someone does not have the time or will to put effort into training their dog then there are other ways. Not the ways I would prefer to teach myself but the other ways do exist still the same. If people didn't allow these problems to pop up from the day they got their puppy there would probably be no reason to use any aversives at all. But in the case where they just want a quick fix and don't care to put time and effort into their much deserving dog then that's too bad, but I don't want anything to do with that. If they did put in the time and effort and had loads and loads of patience but everything STILL wasn't working, I'd either refer on or help them work with some different equipment. And again, I will say, it doesn't matter what course you do or what "camp" you are in, there are exceptions to every rule and its up to the individual to keep informed and educated. I'm not a "quick fix" kind of person, I'm a life learning kind of person, people who want a quick fix can go elsewhere, and as I've already said, it's a good thing they have somewhere else to go, right? I'm not going to advocate the use of punishers just because someone couldn't be bothered to put the effort into their dog. For the record, I tell people how to use check chains every week. Nearly everyone who comes to our club these days has one on their dog. I'd rather tell them how to use it properly than to stand back and let them jerk their dog around aimlessly. Doesn't mean I don't cringe every time I see someone using them and wish deep down that they'd try working with their dog, without a check chain, and see the results that can come from that.

If a head halter is properly counter conditioned it should not bother the dog to wear it. I had a Boxer on a head halter once, it did fit. There is the option of an easy walk or sporn harness, which does not go over the head but prevents pulling. The "aversive" is in direct proportion to the dogs attempts at pulling, not a (possibly poorly timed) "attack" from its handler. I did say I may or may not recommend one, I wouldn't if there were a more gentle way around it. In my experience people with big out of control dogs don't benefit from a check chain anyway, if the dog is big enough and strong enough to drag its owner, the owner is probably not big enough and strong enough to give an effective check. The head halter is NOT a training tool, the idea is to work with the dog to reinforce the correct behavior, the only reason the head halter is there is so that, if the dog is too big and strong for the handler and it slips up, the handler can more easily manage the situation. I personally do prefer the no pull harnesses, however, I do see more and more people every day walking down the street with their dogs on head halters, the dogs look happy, the owners look happy, everyone is happy.

Premack principal, the dog can get to the other dog to play (provided they are socialised), but only if it is on a loose leash. I'd be teaching "you cannot move forwards on a tight lead" without the presence of other dogs, so that the dog got the idea without too much distraction, with additional rewards (food or toy rewards) until the dog got the idea, and then let it see other dogs (perhaps at an offleash park) from a distance, once it has kept a loose leash for a few moments (gradually increasing moments) the behavior would be marked and the dog would be allowed off leash to play. I may or may not suggest a head halter or easy walk harness, depending on the size/strength/determination of the dog etc. ETA: A friend did this with her Great Dane. She'd been told by a few people that such a big, strong dog would need to go on a check chain. All she did was stop moving when he was pulling and within a week he'd stopped pulling altogether and now walks beautifully.

Yes, I do understand operant and classical conditioning, I've completed a university course in Psychology and have spent the past 9 years studying it :D And thank God for that!!! What a boring world it would be if we were all exactly the same!! How wonderful it is that we do each have our own set of ethics, and what a fantastic thing for dog owners that their instructors each have a different set of ethics, otherwise they may never have an opportunity to find an instructor who they agree with on anything!! I know that not everyone is going to agree with everything I have to say, but that's ok, if they don't agree they can go elsewhere, there are plenty of "balanced" trainers they can seek help from if the positive stuff doesn't suit their beliefs. But what about people who just don't have it in their nature to be "tough" on their dogs. Even a check chain will only work if you put enough force behind it, but not everyone is able to do this (either mentally or physically). And for those people, isn't it just fantastic that there IS another way? And that there ARE trainers and behaviorists out there that are able to work another way around these issues? I was talking to a friend the other day who was just ecstatic about the opportunity to work in a library in a museum, personally I couldn't think of anything more boring!! But I thought to myself, it is such a wonderful thing that there is so much human diversity, frankly the world wouldn't function without it. There is no "right" or "wrong" answer, I am happy to agree to disagree, because otherwise, if everyone were clones and had exactly the same set of ethics and did everything exactly the same as one another, really, where would we be? And where would the future of our dogs lie??

I do think a poorly time reinforcer is less stressful than a poorly timed punisher. Either way the dog is confused, a poorly timed reinforcer is less likely to result in a depressed and miserable dog though. In my experience timing is one of the things most people find most difficult to master, so I'm not going to advocate its use. Back to the original topic, I agree completely with everything that Corvus is saying. Pick a course that trains to your own belief system and what you are most comfortable using, but remain open minded to other options also - Either by doing further studies, or referring on. If you want to be a master at positive training, do a positive course and further your knowledge through further studies in that AS WELL as other options, so that you do not become too closed minded, if you WANT to be a trainer that uses "all four quadrants" frequently, do a course that goes into depth in each of them. Decide what your own belief system is and what kind of trainer you want to become and choose a course based on that, leave the extreemists from both camps out of it because becoming an extreemist is a personal choice, it doesn't necessarilly go hand in hand with doing a particular course.

Agreed! Personally I'd prefer read up read up read up on positive methods, and become really skilled at that (ie doing a course based on positive methods) and find a few outside sources on alternates for the very extreme cases to fall back on as a very last resort, than to become equally knowledgeable on "all four quantrants" and be tempted to fall back on what's "easy" as a first or second resort, without exhausting all other possibilities first. There is a LOT to be learnt about positive training, I'll dedicate my life to knowing as much as I can about it, with the knowledge the other methods exist and can and do work, and how to apply them if absolutely necessary (yes even back in my check chain days my instructor - ex military dog trainer - would always tell me what a good trainer I was, even "purely positive" books like Jean Donaldsons makes reference to using an e collar for a recall if absolutely necessary for the sake of the dogs life). I'd rather do the Delta course and surround my life in positives and use them in every case possible, than learn everything equally and use them all equally. I've chosen the CASI course because it does look more in depth, but who knows, I may even do the NDTF or Delta course one day if I want to become "Nationally Accredited", but I will make every effort to become as knowledgeable and skilled in positive methods and avoid the aversives as much as possible to obtain results.

Coles and reject shops sell clickers, you're kidding right? I'll have to go see if ours does!!

As for the grooming, this video will explain step by step how to desensitize a dog to things (specifically nail clipping, but you could apply the same principals to grooming). Simply being at the groomers was probably a very stressful situation for the dog. I got my first Pap at 14 months of age and he was terrified of being groomed, I kept treating him and just putting the brush near him, then one gentle stroke, then a harder stroke, treat treat treat, he learned to love it. I've done the same with Berri and Mango and they both enjoy being groomed. As long as you aren't abusing the power and your dog has a clear association between what it is doing and the reason it is being checked, you shouldn't feel too bad. You probably wont have to do it for long and the problem will resolve, but remember to keep rewarding the good behavior Perhaps you could get a tug toy and teach it that the only acceptable thing for it to grab onto it a tug toy? If it is a behavior the dog really enjoys you can harness it and use it to your advantage. Mango loved to pull on my pants, but I taught her she's only allowed to tug on something if I hold it in front of her and tell her to "get it", otherwise she gets left in the room with no one to talk to (ie I walk away).

Well I'd say perhaps it is a couple of weeks before her season then, as there is still no swelling and she only turns 6 months next weekend. I'm a bit nervous lol

I can't believe they don't sell them here, what a useful idea! Perhaps one of us could go into business making them in Aus I think it is so cool/funny that you have a hare to train :D Sorry for the OT!

:D I've known 2 dogs recommended to be PTS from "balanced" trainers, one of them never even showed any form of aggression, just behaved as though he were "dominant", the other, sadly, was actually PTS To me "balance" is giving some sort of consequence, it doesn't actually need to be P+. I consider my dogs training to be balanced, but I don't actually use P+.

Oh wow they actually exist? I've been saying for ages that I REALLY REALLY NEED something like that for Berri when I've got kids over and he is being good and I can't leave the kids to reward him. I'm very excited to hear this, I'm definitely going to buy one!

I just discovered the 4 legs roll yesterday I put off buying it because it's so big and didn't like the thought of cutting it into thousands of cubes, but it is worth the effort! I bought the VIP puppy roll before hand and it turns to slush in your hands, pretty gross. I like the idea of a "treat" that is balanced and healthy. Will have to try that beef heart! What is a manners minder by the way?

Mango doesn't like cheese It's good to have a bit of variety in the treat bag, just to keep things interesting. If you're too predictable sometimes it can contribute to losing the dogs interest. Have fun experimenting with lots of yummy foods!

Bear with her, some dogs need to "learn" to be food motivated it seems. I wonder if I wasn't so persistent with Mango whether she would just not be a food motivated dog. Do you feed her kibble, or something sloppy like raw? If you feed kibble you can feed the first half of each meal just asking for something basic, like a hand touch, click, treat, then give the second half of the meal in her bowl (otherwise you will be there all day and she will learn not to eat out of her bowl, your hand is better!). With Mango, even though she was raw fed, I bought a bag of Royal Canin and gave her a kibble meal each day doing this to build her food motivation and get in a good training session each day. I still have half the bag in the freezer and defrost it as I need it to use as treats at home (tastier treats come out when we leave the house or I am training something I want extra focus and drive for).

How old is she? Puppies are distracted because they have immature brains and short attention spans. It's to be expected and IMO the MOST important thing of puppy training is the socialisation. Everything else can come later, if your dog is socialised it has the basics that it needs to cope with many things in life. Teaching a pup to think and use its brain is also an important aspect of puppy school, more so than actually perfecting any of the "commands". The best thing you can do if your pup is distracted is to keep going along to classes and get socialised, and for you to be like a sponge, take in every thing they are teaching you and go home and do homework homework homework. Pups (and dogs) learn best in a low distraction evironment, and in several short sessions a day. To take a pup to pre school and expecting attention and focus the whole time is hard for any dog, but near impossible for a pup! 5 times 3 minute sessions a day should be plenty, do it before each meal (pups eat several meals a day anyway), and just whenever you get a spare moment, in ad breaks etc. You'll find once she has mastered things at home it will be MUCH easier to get her to do it at school, even if she is distracted. Most importantly, have fun!

I had a similar problem with Mango when she was younger, then I discovered roast pork. She'll work her little bum off for roast pork no matter what the distraction was! She's very tug toy motivated, a drive that I recommend you build in your pup because it makes training down the track a little easier as you will have more options for reinforcers. When she was younger she would take 5 minutes to sort of learn a new trick with food reward, but pull out the tug and she'd learn a trick in about 45 seconds, it's like there was a secret "switch". Now she's a little older (5 months old) she'll work hard for food or tug toys, you might find the same with your pup - Some pups take a while to get going, bear with them though because it is worth the wait (and persistence, don't give up!).

Thanks Tim, how long would you leave a body wrap on for? Not sure I'll be able to make it to one of the seminars, the November one is in Melbourne (too far) and May isn't good (going to a Sue Hogbin seminar which will be my "event" for the month". A DVD would be great though.

Can anyone recommend a good DVD? It's something I've always been interested in, but never learnt. Might have to convince someone to send me down to the November course for my birthday ETA If there is a DVD specific to fear/anxiety that would be really good. Berri's got a whole lotta ear to work with, if only I knew what to do!

Wow, I don't know what to say. No doubt there'll be a full investigation, sounds pretty suss to me... Some people just shouldn't have dogs... Or children...

I agree with everything Agility Dogs has said. I think it's important for the trainer to be able to speak in common terms people can understand (I think that is my biggest weakness), but also to explain the reasons why such a technique works, rather than to just say "do it". To give an owner an idea of why dogs behave they do is half way to solving a problem and gives them more to work with when problems just pop up out of the blue between classes or consults.

I'd love to go to a drive training seminar, I haven't read up much on drive training but assume I train Berri in (food) drive because he works so hard for it. I end the session on a good note, often followed by a game of tug and then let Mango or the kitty in for him to play with, or I'll play several games of "seek" with him. I don't him to think that when he does really well everything ends and he is just left "hanging", so I give him another activity so that he can keep having fun without me. Mango is different, I often train her using the tug toy, so it is part of our training session, rather than something to just finish it off (Berri often wont work well for a toy, he is more food driven). I normally finish her sessions off with a cuddle, because she really loves a good snuggle. Both dogs are very different, so therefore my training sessions accomodate that.

Congrats!!!