Prydenjoy

Cute, it shouldn't take her long We're showing at a breed show, she's only 7 months and I haven't done that much actual obedience with her. Most of what we've done has just been in the lounge room, I've only done obedience with her twice outside of the home but she seems good so far and I may trial her some day.

I haven't taught that one Staranais, although he will back up and "find" whatever is on the floor with his back feet if we're shaping - I accidentally taught this one when I was trying to teach the 2o2o with an unsuitable board, he figured out his back feet were supposed to be on it and now he'll walk around the room backwards until he finds something to step onto Also, if I put a broom down (don't ask why I taught him this, I was bored lol) he'll step over it with 2 feet so that he has his left paws on one side and his right paws on the other and the broom up the middle. He loves paw work Mango has already learnt a visual cue for her pivots, if I turn my shoulders one way it means she has to take a few steps the other to straighten up, turn the shoulders the other way she'll side step in the other direction. Can't wait to take it on the road at the show in 2 weeks

Oh Husky, you really aren't getting ANYTHING that I am trying to say, so I will stop trying. You wont hear from me again in this thread

Because it seems you are disagreeing with everything I say just for the sake of disagreeing with me, without actually trying to get where I am coming from ;) I'm talking in general too, trying more gentle ways in general is better than trying more aversive ways. If there is a firm knowledge of certain dogs and certain behaviors etc than you still know what your kindest options are, even if they do use aversives.

I'm not saying a front attaching harness won't ever work, but that what tool you use depends on the dog and the behaviour and the capability of the owner. Why would a trainer recommend a tool they know isn't going to work on a particular dog? Why would you use a tool that is not suited to a dog for various reasons just because "it wouldn't hurt to try it"? Um because we are on the INTERNET and haven't met the dog, perhaps?

OK but if you've got so much experience and have met the dog etc and you can make an educated decision you know your options and can still use the most "gentle" method for that dog, even if it does involve the use of aversives. Making blanket statements over the internet that someone should be strangling their dog or putting a prong collar on it rather than putting it on a harness (without even actually knowing how a front attach harness works) is another thing altogether. Puppy pre school classes (8 - 16 weeks) that tell owners that they must buy a check chain and have their pup on a check chain in class, regardless of breed etc (mini poodles, westies etc), is another thing that gets my goat (my club does this, and then I'm supposed to teach the classes). A trained professional that has worked with hundreds or thousands of dogs, that has a personal goal to use a gentler method if suitable to that dog (and handler), I don't have a problem with that, even if they do recommend more aversive methods for certain dogs. I do feel that many trainers use aversives necessarily when the dog would have learnt just as quickly with a bit of encouragement and training to behave appropriately.

How much would it hurt to at least TRY a front attach harness? How would you know it wouldn't work if you didn't try it?? If you have a problem with wanting to find the most gentle method for a dog that is your problem, I stick by my belief that we should be as kind as we can to our dogs and yes, sometimes being kind may mean finding alternative ways to help more "driven" or stubborn dogs fall into line such as shock collars etc, but how on earth are we supposed to know that that is what the dog needs if we haven't tried anything else?

Funny you should say that, seeing as you're the one trying to turn it into a debate... In relation to the original question I was just saying why not try a front attach harness before putting on a prong, what is wrong with that? And I was just saying it is fair on the dog to find the least aversive method suitable to that dog, which I thought you might somewhat agree with. I never said it was wrong for anyone to ever use punishment, so why are you making out that I am and trying to start an arguement about it??

So you're saying that people with driven dogs shouldn't bother "messing" around with positives? Interesting, Berri is very driven and in the times where I have used aversives on him he's taken giant leaps backwards on all of the work I've done with him. Positives keep him switched on and attentive, without the added anxiety which tends to make him flip out (he's very reactive as well). I really have to disagree with you on this one Corvus

I taught Mango this yesterday as an attempt to get her to stand square in front of me for dog shows. She always swings her bum toward my left heel (I taught her the flip finish in just 2 clicks!) so I thought if I could get her to pivot I could get her to correct herself. Within a few minutes she was pivoting beautifully to stand sqaure in front of me

Good question! I'd love to hear the answer, because it's never been something I could get my head around. We all love our dogs, right? Why hurt the things you love? When there is a better way? Sorry Jeanne, don't take that to mean I don't agree with using corrections when necessary. Because I have no issue with people using prongs, e-collars etc when it's appropriate... but when they are being used appropriately, it wouldn't be what I consider unnecessary force. In fact when I've seen these tools used properly it's all about using as minimal force as possible. On the other hand, giving a mammoth leash correction to a dog when you're trying to train competition heel work purely because the dog is disinterested/lacking motivation - an example of unnecessary force IMO. I agree, but isn't it fair on the dog to exhaust all of the more positive, gentle methods before resorting to a prong etc? If the dog would walk nicely on a lead without pulling using an easy walk with a couple of well timed reinforcement then wouldn't that be a better FIRST option to try? At the end of the day you need to go with what works, but you owe it to your dog to try to work with them, not against them, and if they still don't respond then try something else.

Good question! I'd love to hear the answer, because it's never been something I could get my head around. We all love our dogs, right? Why hurt the things you love? When there is a better way?

I agree with Corvus, while it is a nice idea to avoid drugs, it can help a problem by reducing the anxiety associated with a situation, so that you can work on it in a relaxed state of mind. The anxiety itself is what triggers the reaction, you take reduce the anxiety, the behavior becomes more manageable. Unless, of course it has become a learned behavior, in which case learning (an alternate behavior) is more easily achieved when the dog is not under stress anyway. Of course, do see a behaviorist anyway, but just some more food for thought :D

Black Dog sell a double ended lead, it's just a lead with a clip on each end basically. You're not a thicko, I guess there's no reason why you couldn't do that and tie them together so you're not fumbling with so many leads

He can be his own number one (and only) fan If I was worried about a dog redirecting I'd have it on a muzzle regardless of whatever was controlling the dog. I'd first make sure that the dog was happy in the muzzle though, by desensitizing it etc

I have a reactive dog and used Clomicalm in conjunction with counter conditioning and desensitisation and he is a different dog now. He used to lunge and bite at children, now he goes up to them tail wagging, relaxed and happy, for a pat (and a treat, he hopes!). On walks he knows when the situation is getting above his threshold and comes and sits in front of me, whereas before he would be attacking and going ballistic at the other dog. He is a new dog, he does require constant work though, it's not something that you "fix" and forget about. He's off the clomicalm now, but now that he has alternate behaviors that he has learned he is fine anyway. Do book yourself into an experienced behaviorist, this is not something you want to "treat" on your own, you need someone with a lot of knowledge and experience to guide you. Good luck!

Just a tip when you have conflicting information, take the safest advice with the least potential for negative side effects and use it first. Hopefully it will work, at least then you wont be feeling guilty later for doing something to your dog that was unnecessary and stressful for all involved. Front clip harness is probably your best bet, even if a few people here don't even seem to know what they are

You're right cowanbree. It's hard to walk away from so many dreams and plans, selling the house is such a HUGE decision though. It will be made easier if I knew I would be able to find somewhere to live and stay there until I can buy a house again.

Depends on the breed. Our clubs guideline is 10 months which I think is generally way too young, if you have toy or mini poodles though (guessing by your name!) you should be able to get away with 10 months. Most clubs will expect you to complete a basic obedience course before doing agility. In the beginning Berri would run off every now and again, it's just a matter of me having really high value rewards, keeping his focus, and picking him up as soon as he's finished the run. You'd start by showing the treat, perhaps putting the dog over one jump, give the reward, and then another straight after while picking up/putting on the lead. Once the dog is going to you to anticipate its reward you can start trying 2 jumps or whatever etc. Practice about 50 x recalls a day around the house and yard. Once you get that really strong you can move to an empty paddock or whatever on a long line, ask for a recall every 5 seconds - 1 minute or so. Once the reaction is really strong you can start to remove the lead (no distractions). Just take it slowly, work on a really strong recall reaction. My dogs each come to their name on a walk, because when I call them I rarely want them all at once. I take turns calling each of them, every day, all through our walk. As soon as I say one of their names you'll see them put the brakes on, skid around and come pelting back to me. If you can get speed and focus like this in agility you're stepping off on the right foot. Good luck

Thanks, well it doesn't make my decision any easier anyway I'll look into private, there is only one place locally through the real estate website and it is way out of my price range. I'm thinking 15 km out of town would be nice. It doesn't help that Berri is a massive escape artist and I can't live anywhere near a busy road.

Do any of the breeders here rent? How is this possible? I've got lots of plans with my doggies, it's preventing me from doing the logical thing and selling the house to get away from this dismal relationship... Would selling the house mean throwing away plans of having more than 2 - 3 dogs?

Some really good ideas, I'd suggest getting one jump and the Susan Garret DVD "Success with one jump", so many great ideas in there. I haven't got my jump yet, but can still work on the other activities, and it's obvious when I do go to agility and am trying to learn front crosses etc, Berri picks on much quicker than the other dogs, and I'm not getting all tripped up either!

Thanks Corvus, I'll read them too

I did a little bit of training with my cat, but found training the dogs much more rewarding so the cat kept getting neglected I'd love to train dolphins or seals, that would be really cool

young humans that I am a much better dog trainer than kid trainer! I totally understand where you're coming from