Prydenjoy

If it wasn't for the fact that you have to drive home I often wonder if a quick rum might help Guess I'll have to arranged a DD

I always train off leash, lately I've been hiding the foodor a toy somewhere before I go out to start a training session, as far as the dog knows I don't have anything, but if I get the right focus and attention etc it just magically appears, he's learnt that even when I "don't have" a reward it is still in his best interest to do what I want because there will always be something! You need to make heeling a highly reinforced behavior, even in the absense of food. Berri has to do some heel work before his meals, during play time, when he wants to come inside or outside, when he wants to play with the cat etc, so the association with food really isn't all that strong. ETA a conditioned marker, such as clicker or word marker and release word is very important, they need to know they are getting access to this goodie because of what they are doing at that moment, otherwise it wont work (eg the dog is heeling perfectly, suddenly you break off and open the door to let it in, it follows behind you to the door - What is the dog being rewarded for?).

I always say when I stop having fun, I'll stop training.... The thought of being judged is pretty nerve racking though!

Not if I beat you to it

Ok I'm going to have to revise some of his signals etc I think!

I think that answers my next question, if Berri see's my hand at my right side he'll go straight in for the flip finish, so for a recall my hands are kind of grasped together in front of me. Is this what others do? I can relate x 2 I'm confused, I can tell I'm going to lose a lot of points on the weekend (all through my own faults!). So technically it would be ok if I stood feet slightly apart (he comes in and stops with his feet between mine) and my hands grasped in front BEFORE I call him, it shouldn't be an issue when I call him and have my hands like this? What about down the track when I want to finish him, obviously my hands will then move to the side and my feet will have to come together, will I be penalised? I think I'll learn a lot through stewarding this weekend as well! Can you look at the dog when you stop or down or stand or whatever? I don't want to hit him in the face if I don't look down and just swipe my hand in front of him!

Sometimes I wonder why people even bother doing research when so many people just ignore the results and think that they know better!

Good point!! The rest were dubbed "dumb" or "untrainable". We now know that to be far from the truth, we were just too "dumb" to work out how to motivate them!!

The eye contact thing I think started because I'm a high feedback, excitable trainer. I love to heel around and he's looking me right in the eye as if to say "Am I doing good??". Very cute What about your left hand, does it matter where that is? I recently watched people heeling, and they held their hand at their waist instead of just letting it dangle. Is that a double signal?

Good for you, I have an active toddler who has been missing out on far too much of my attention while I've been wasting my time talking to deaf ears, so I quit!

I recently did a recall in front of a group of people, they all cracked up laughing (as everyone always does when Berri does a recall). An ex military dog trainer said in amongst his giggles that it would be near impossible to keep a straight face watching a dog do a recall with so much enthusiasm

Yup I did too, I think perhaps it's time we stop banging our heads on brick walls, some people just aren't open to learning new things and only want to have their say, without actually acknowledging other peoples answers...

Will have to see that one

I did - Like I said, I can't speak for other Delta instructors in other places, or even what information is given out through the course (because I haven't done it), but I can highly recommend the Delta trainer that teaches PPS here. She's wonderful, though I didn't agree with EVERYTHING she said in PPS, but I don't think any two trainers would ever agree with EVERYTHING. I can say, though, that I'm glad I didn't enrol in a Delta course! From what I've read here about many of their instructors it would probably be a big fat waste of time and money! Positive methods = yes I love them and use them and would recommend them to anyone. Delta trainers (outside of Armidale) = I don't think I could recommend them after what I've read. Like I said before, please don't rubbish the method just because some people don't know what they're doing...

I see a lot of that mentality everywhere I go. Why do we use forceful methods on our dogs? Because WE CAN!! Just because we can, doesn't mean we should. I would never (not these days anyway, been there, done that) apply force to a dog so that I could get the pride of an obedience title or whatever (assuming that it were impossible to trial a dog with positive methods, which clearly it isn't anyway). If it came to that I would just opt for a happy pet. If the dogs weren't having fun I simply wouldn't bother. Why some people put their dogs through all kinds of pain and punishment for their own means is beyond me

Apparently Papillons do well. Berri did one intro lesson, he practically took off flying with those big ears and that speed lol. Looking forwards to more agility to come! Got a copy of Susan Garrats Success with one Jump, and am looking forwards to putting some of it into practice! Just wish Berri was more toy motivated, working on that. Mango is EXTREMELY toy motivated, but has such a gentle nature and such precious feet (wont walk in wet grass etc) I'm not sure she'll ever get into agility.

I haven't actually done the DELTA course so don't actually know what they teach, but I do know that a lot of learning is subject to interpratation. Perhaps the course itself appeals to overly permissive people, who fail to pass on alternative ways to give consequences to the dog? Therefore the instructors are overly permissive and the dogs get away with murder. Doesn't say ANYTHING about positive methods, POSITIVE IS NOT PERMISSIVE (or it doesn't HAVE to be anyway). There can be more consequences than simply witholding treats. Time outs can be used, stop moving on a walk when the dog is pulling, not letting the dog out of its crate when it is barking etc. Berri doesn't get away with much that I don't WANT him to do, however I never yell at him and he is certainly not on a check chain or an E Collar or anything like that. There are consequences to his actions and he falls into line pretty quickly when he realises what is expected of him. Same goes for children (for those who have brought children into the discussion). I never smack my child, but that doesn't mean I am permissive! She knows if she wants another toy out she has to pack up the first one, if she wants to go outside she has to have a hat and sunscreen on. She doesn't argue with any of this (she's only 21 months old) and her carers that have had her have always been amazed that she packs up their toys etc without even being asked. It is because she knows what is expected of her, she knows if she wants B to happen she has to do A first. Gee if I'd started smacking her and started that power struggle I'd be onto the belt already because she's so strong willed it just wouldn't work for her. I'm working WITH her, not against her. Same goes for my dogs, and they all love me for it! So if there is an issue with a certian Delta instructor, or instructors, I can't vouch for them because I haven't met them. Just don't use them as an example to rubbish the method altogether. Have you considered contacting Delta with your concerns? Perhaps they need to focus more in their course as to alternate consequences, and natural consequences. Also how to motivate without food, because it is true - We wont always have food in our hands, but even then we have control to their access to a car, a toy, being let off leash, back/belly scratches, playing with the cat (big reinforcer for my dogs), playing with other dogs etc etc etc etc etc etc the list is endless! If you utilise all of these things and the dog learns to earn anything it wants you will most certainly not always need food in your hand, because there is always something to fall back on (even if it is JUST PRAISE once in a while, using food does not affect how much it enjoys verbal praise, in fact if you're pairing it with food enough in the training stage and thereafter it will become a secondary reinforcer - SO THERE!)

How can anyone argue with that? WELL DONE!!! Considering that many of the top scoring dogs around the world are trained positively I'm not sure how anyone can argue with any of it, clearly it can be done, there's no question! Perhaps it's self justification to make them feel better about punishing their own dogs (that's the only logicla explaination I can come to, honestly...) EXACTLY! Whether there is food or not, if the reinforcement history is good enough the dog will simply love to work for all of the positive associations it holds. Simple question: Are you allowed to use physical corrections in the ring? I don't see how this is any different to being allowed to carry food in the ring... (a dog on an intermittent schedule of reinforcement will not need you to carry food with you anyway). And a dog that works for "praise" only is generally working to avoid an aversive (as Jean Donaldson reminds us in her excellent book "The Culture Clash"). The praise is simply a signal that they are doing the right thing and not about to be punished, so yes, they'll work for praise, doesn't mean they'll work with the same drive and joy that they would be working for if they had something they actually ENJOYED to motivate them.

I'm not sure whether that is out of context, but it doesn't sound right to me. A reinforcer is just that, it is something that reinforces behavior, making it more likely to happen in the future. If I train with a lot of high value rewards, I assume the dog will "expect" a high value reward, but if I then change to a lower value reward (like boring kibble) the behavior is still maintained, or continues to become stronger. I highly doubt that in feeding kibble I am "exceeding" the dogs expectations, but the reward still works...

Yes he is amazing, I do have one clip of him learning the flip finish (which we now have down pat, I was teaching it all wrong but now he'd do anything to be right at my foot). I haven't had the chance to get any other clips of him. Well I think the nearest training centre that conforms to my ideals is over 2 hours away, so I just go to our local club and do my own thing (it gets difficult when I'm instructing classes and my methods are different to the ones being taught, I do my best to be open minded). It's funny that some people have had problems with Delta instructors, I have come across some AMAZING Delta instructors and highly recommend the lady who teaches Puppy Pre School at the Vets here. She is fantastic. Our friend who got a exhuberent Dane puppy was having difficulty until she did a home visit and the difference in him is incredible (they also have 2 young kids, so it was vital to nip the problems in the bud). We used to have some absolutely wonderful instructors in town many years ago, sadly they have all left (problem with being at a University town, people get their PhD's or whatever and move on). Sometimes you just don't know what you've got until it's gone... And no, NONE of the Delta instructors I have met would EVER recommend taking a pups food off it every day and not giving it something extra special before giving it straight back. Just because one person is a moron doesn't mean they all are (unless the puppy buyer simply wasn't following directions properly, that is also a possibility). Huski, Daisy sounds like a lovely dog. I love a Beagle with lots of food motivation

Sounds like a great conference, yes I probably would sell my soul to go to one lol She sounds very interesting, I might have to get a copy of her book myself. If we weren't so detached from animals there would be much tighter rules around the breeding and owning of dogs. As it stands they need to be kept in appauling conditions before ANYTHING can be done. So sad I'm always on facebook posting about how much fun I have training and walking and playing with my dogs, posting links to training sites, puppy mill info etc etc etc. I have 400 odd friends so hopefully some of it might rub off on a few of them, and in turn they might then rub off on a few others. One can only hope.

Sounds positive to me, that's how I've trained Mango, also playing LOTS of tug with her and instilling a wonderful "Give" command, now if she picks up the wrong thing I just say "Give" and she brings it to me or just lets go of it and comes over to me while I find another, more appropriate, toy for her to chew on (very important when your floor is covered in baby toys!). The Uh-uh is not a correction, just a sign that she should look to me and I'll give her something even better

Amen to that!! Honestly, I don't see how anyone could have a problem with people who choose not to be hard on their dog! You CAN get results with either method, but NOT every pet owner is a good trainer, REGARDLESS of what method they use. So why jump on the band wagon laughing at the method, when really it is the trainer that is struggling? Some dogs trained positively will go through trials keeping their 200 points, if the method didn't work how would this be possible? I don't know how Berri would have actually gone in a trial, but many of the triallers at the club were telling me I should have entered him because "he would have done well". Honestly the thought hadn't crossed my mind. He had previously passed the puppy class a year earlier, but hadn't had any training in between (I was busy having a baby and unfortunately didn't spend as much time with him during that time as I would have liked, I never even got a baby sitter until I took him back to training!). As for the class being chaos, you can get classes using all methods that are chaos, peoples timing is not good, they might not be following directions properly, their dogs are highly distracted (and yes, even dogs on check chains can get distracted!). I have good reason to only train using positives, I personally don't agree with check chains but that's my opinion, you don't see me jumping on my band wagon and saying how the classes are laughable (there's nothing funny about it) and the the dogs are out of control (which many of them are) - And it's all because of the method! I grin and bear it. But if you have options (I don't), and it really bothers you THAT much that you have to come here to get it all off your chest, then the solution is easy DON'T GO! You say you want to see other peoples methods, but you clearly aren't being open minded. Rather than focusing on the worst stories (which you get in any class, regardless of method) why not (if you really have an open mind) find the best dogs, look at the relationship they have with the owner, how focused they are and dedicated. If you're not seeing this in any of the dogs I'm sorry, you're in with a bunch of lemons! Or you're being too critical... Also, not every training group is training for trialling, many are simply to provide a better connection with the dog and aim for a good companionship. Teaching how to communicate with the dogs etc. If all the dogs are pulling on the lead when they get there perhaps the owners don't actually mind? I used to let Berri pull me into training every week, because he was having fun, and that was the only thing I care about. Now he knows that if he wants to get anywhere the golden ticket is to have a loose leash, because if that leash isn't loose we ain't moving!

I went to a CCD judge training thing and we were a "guinea pig" for the judges, the feed back was that Berri would have only lost one or two points, but I would have lost heaps! I'm nervous, I don't want to fail him! This was after 3 months of no formal training (xmas break), at the shelter grounds (where he'd never been before... Except once when he dug out of the yard!) with dogs barking at us non stop. It was my first attempt doing anything with Berri with no food around, so the fact he blitzed it was incredible - I love the sweet little thing, what a champ!

Depends on the "team", as with any method of dog training. I think you're in the wrong class, if you're not open minded about it then you might as well go somewhere else. In answer to your question (statement, whatever), it doesn't take long at all if you know what you're doing. I have had everyone at our club coming up to me simply amazed by the progress Berri made in SUCH a short period of time, I think I'd been going for 2 months when half a dozen people asked me if I was trailing, and why not. These are people who had been working their dogs with check chains for pretty much forever and Berri had over taken them. I went to a positive workshop on the weekend and the people there had so many "wow" moments as they got their dogs to do things they had never been able to do before. I don't (well, rarely - I am human after all!) say no to my dogs, we have a great relationship. They have to work for everything they want and need, food, getting in and out of the house/car, going for walks, play etc. I establish my authority over them in a way that doesn't involve saying "no", and they respect me for that.