Kelpie-i

Thanks Am!!

Sounds to me like your puppy just doesn't know what you're trying to do and is reacting by barking. Nothing menacing about that!

Not that I wish to get involved, but just curious as to the method used??

CTD, it all depends on the type of sheep used to start the pup. Normally, a pup is placed with lambs and/or "dogged" sheep which is normally quite safe. Also, you should be working in a small yard and for very short periods of time. IMO, a working dog is never too young to start herding but of course common sense should prevail in that you should limit the time your pup is in with sheep and make sure the sheep are suitable....ie. stomping sheep are not suitable for a young starting pup. Ducks are very good for starting pups as well. A scare can certainly "switch off" a timid type pup, but if you're pup has a 'harder" type personality, I wouldn't be too worried. My pup was put on lambs when he was just 6 weeks old by the breeder -no problems there!!

Obedience, certainly easiest! Herding: difficult because most dog's have their own minds and so do sheep!

No such thing as rehoming a dog that doesn't herd if you're a farmer. If the dog don't herd, it usually meets God. Having said that however, many breeders of working dogs will certainly try to re-home a dog that won't work as a family pets.

Hi Ayra, how do you go about teaching a complex skill which is made up of of many components with a ball as reward - do you use it as a lure as well as a reward? Do you use the ball as your dog's reward for everything he does? Just interested in your responses. It has always been my belief and teaching that the dog should choose his reward, not the human

Hi Border Lover, it's about exercising the brain more than the braun. Providing your pup with stimulating activities such as fetch games, obedience etc is more important at this stage rather than an hour long walk. I agree with Nekhbet, an hour is way too long for such a young pup. Is she digging in the same spot or is it anywhere? Is it near trees/plants or has she seen you plant these things recently??

Hi Poodle Mum, I just thought I'd point out that pinch collars and prong collars are the same thing - it's just that you write as though they are two different training tools.

Arya, yes I agree that tone of voice when praising, correcting etc is very important as a clear communicator to dogs, however for those people with bad timing, no personality, no relationship with their dog and/or those who are completely stressed due to their dog's aggression and find it extremely hard to bring out their voice tones on time and in a correct manner, the clicker works very well. I use the clicker with aggressive dogs by first teaching the owner correct timing and clicking on precisely the right moment. I usually have the owner work on focus from the dog first. Once the owner is working well with this and the dog has the concept, then we move to a low-level distraction environment where there might be one or two dogs around and keep the handler working on focus etc. If the dog happens to load, I instruct the owner to try to remain calm and move away - no correction, no re-action - no worries! It's a slow process for sure, but with each session we see the dog improving and beginning to look up at the owner more often for guidance which is met with a click and treat and game etc. The main thing here is to "hide" any emotion that the owner may be feeling due to the aggression and to concentrate on the dog's good behaviour. The owner's emotions are actually hidden behind the clicker, so to speak. With this brings the start of communication, albeit initially by a clicker, but as the owner's confidence grows and begins to relax more and the dog begins to offer appropriate behaviour more often, I find that the owner does begin to use correct verbal praise and marking naturally. I also use verbal techniques for those with better timing and good communication with their dogs, it all depends on the situation that is presented and the capability of the owners. I suppose that's the beauty of "balanced" training. Working Setters, yes I am enjoying the book. As with all books, there are certain parts that are questionable (I always questions things however), but most of it is common sense stuff with good step-by-step exercises for the beginner. The author, Emma Parsons, is not a trainer but wrote the book after gaining success with her dog's severe aggression through clicker training. Se has since helped many other people with the same problem and has gained knowledge and experience on the subject. Worth a read if interested.

Arya, the reason some people use the clicker is because it emits the same sound each time. It is used to mark the precise behaviour you are wanting from the dog and is especially good for teaching complex skills and/or slight movements like head tilts, targeting etc. The fact that the click is always the same is the key in that the dog learns that the sound of the click is always followed by a treat, therefore continues to offer the behaviour more often. Whilst verbal markers can work well if you keep your voice tone the same each time, they can unfortunately become misconstrued if your tone changes or you are having a bad day etc. Remember that dogs are masters at reading body language and if you are having a "can't be bothered" day then your words will come out as a reflection of that. The clicker, on the other hand, always has the same neutral sound , therefore there is less chance of the dog becoming confused. You can always use a verbal praise with game etc afterward. There is a whole lot of information about clicker training on the web. It's not for all people though - you either love it or hate it. I use the clicker occassionally, more so for teaching tricks but have used it to polish up obedience etc. Lately I have been using the clicker on aggressive dogs and it has been working wonders.

When we got our first Kelpie years ago, we mistakenly chose the pup based on his drive....wow what a mistake that was!! We ended up with a dog we could barely control and had so much instinctual aggression, that even as dog trainers, we were faced with enourmous challenges each day. This dog was returned to the breeder a year later and after some extremely firm training, was sold at Casterton Auction for $5000 for his cattle working abiltiies. Our next Kelpies were chosen based on their interaction with us as well as their demeanour over a couple of weeks before taking them away from their litter. We were well aware of their parents and therefore were well versed on their possible temperaments and characteristics. They have both turned out to be exceptional workers and lovely natured dogs as well. It is extremely difficult to predict the personality/working ability of a pup, so I suppose in this case, it would be the breeder who knows better. Having said that however, I know of a breeder who had given up on a particular puppy as she wasn't showing any interest in the sheep as a young pup. Along with her new owners, this dog has now collected 5 ribbons, including 3 wins at trials.

Hi WS, the book is called "Click to Calm" - I forget the author. I see value in the time lapse between CR and PR as the handler may not always be in a position to give the treat immediately after the click so the dog does not expect the treat to come immediately - only that he knows it WILL come sooner or later. Remember that you can also use verbal markers to indicate to the dog that he is either on the wrong or right track and use the clicker only for when he gets it absolutely spot on. Like a clicker, verbal markers need to be conditioned otherwise they are meaningless to the dog. I am not very comfortable with the multiple click notion and like you, would be concerned that it could cause some "un-conditioning" in the dog as well as confusion. :rolleyes: Hey Erny, the lessons were offered to me by one of my clients who is willing to teach me on a more regular basis. What can I say...I loved it and will pursue it. I had only ever ridden trail ride horses before but this is a completely different story. I would be happy to be your riding partner, but perhaps after a few more riding lessons under my belt Legs and butt are a little better today - thanks for asking :p

That would be me, who had my first official horse riding lesson last Saturday. Legs are still sore today!!

WS, I am currently reading a book on this and it recommends that once you have conditioned the dog to both CR and PR, you should commence lengthening the time between the two. It states that the importance of doing so, so that the dog doesn't expect the reward immediately to enables you to keep working. As long as the PR is always given at the end, the dog will continue to recognise the CR signal as a prelude to the PR. I'm not too sure about the dog "counting up" the number of CRs though??? With my boy this command is "stop", when I want him to stop dead in his tracks whilst working the sheep. And because herding is done off lead, you don't have any means of correcting him is he doesn't stop , only a body block technique and send him off again as his reward. I think both WS and Erny are talking about two completely different types of training. Erny is talking about obedience and WS is talkiing working dogs. There is a huge difference between the two and the rules applied to teaching obedience can be very different to the rules applied to teaching working dogs, whether herding, scenting etc.

Husky87, I find that well mannered and level headed "older" dogs make the best teachers for pups - certainly can make our lives easier! Showdog, an excellent suggestion!

Aaaah yes, kids and dogs.....what a lovely combination!! I see many young teenagers who bring their dog to trianing, some do an excellent job and others...well, they certainly try - but that's the main thing! I would certainly encourage your daughter to attend obedience classes with the dog but most importantly sort out their ranking in the meantime. A good start is the NILIF program (Nothing In Life Is Free). You can find all the info on this by googling the word NILIF. An easy program that, if adhered to, can prevent and/or assist with leadership issues.

I'm not sure who started the "us and them" notion when it comes to dog training? It's silly to think that only one method of training is going to fit all situations - this will never be the case. There are so many different types of personalities in dogs that it is important to keep this in perspective and train according to what is going to achieve the desired results. Whilst PP methods will teach a dog just about anything, unfortunately you don't achieve true reliability with just this method. On the other hand compulsive or correctional methods will achieve reliability but results in the dog constantly having to beat corrections and perform robotically. Both extremes have their downfalls but when we meet halfway - work harmoniously. A happy medium is the sensible approach that is usually undertaken by most trainers these days. Just my 20c worth!

Husky87, whilst this is true, caution should still be taken especially as some dogs can go to far.

Hi Mel_c, congratulations on your new puppy. Young puppies whilst quite resiliant can certainly be injured if another dog is too rough with them. Not to mention the possibility of severely frightening the puppy which can be disastrous if this occurs during the critical socialisation period (first 16 weeks). Only introduce your puppy to those dogs that are friendly and know how to play gently. Also ensure that any dog you introduce your pup to is fully vaccinated. Not necessarily true. This will only frustrate the staffy and can cause issues. If you are satisfied that the staffy is fine with other dogs and you are happy to introduce them, then it is best done quietly and with a plan in mind. Have the staffy on a lead and place him in a sit position. Allow the pup to calmly go up and say hello ie. sniff. Allow the staffy to have a sniff as well so they can get to know each other. If the staffy jumps or becomes over-excited, gently place him back into a sit - reward him with a pat and good boy when he is calm. Once the sniffing and initial introductions are over with and the dogs look content in each other's company, drop the lead (but do not unclip it) and let the staffy go. If play becomes too rough, you can always get the staffy off by using the lead. Reward both of them for playing nicely. I must stress however, that if the staffy is very boisterous and cannot contain himself, then it is best to separate them. This sort of interaction is not good for a small pup. Good luck!

Yes Erny certainly has a way with words. She's also a warm and wonderful person in real life. Such a pity! I would like to thank all those wonderful trainers/behaviourists out there who have shared their knowledge and training insights with people on this forum. I'm sure I speak for most when I say that we have all learned something from each other.

Amen Erny....on all accounts! Kirty you did the best you could to try and save that dog and for that you should be commended. I am sorry there wasn't much anybody could do to help in the end. I am totally disgusted at the treatment given to K9, who whilst trying to help, was bombarded with abuse by ignorant and deplorable human beings. These same people read his posts and ask him questions about his methods and gain from his knowledge. I believe an apology from them would be in order. As for giving free advice over the net, I stopped doing that long ago when I too was abused for trying to help. I only hope that the family are happy with whatever choice they have decided to make.

I didn't even know the thread existed until I saw the cross-post. I don't normally frequent the Rescue section. Any news on whether the dog is still alive or PTS??

Beautifully put Cosmolo! Having worked for Quarantine, I can attest to the fact that the beagles are fed their meals solely from the handler's pouch. No find, no feed - although they occassionally "mock" a seizure or two on a slow day and when training. Not sure about the "no correction" policy though as most BB beagles wear correction chains?? I believe to achieve a totally reliable recall from an extremely high distraction using only positive methods you must be of much higher value to your dog than whatever it is he is wanting to chase, otherwise forget it!

This can certainly be the case if exposed too quickly....one would hope that should the owner choose to take the pup to a training establishment that they don't aren't thrown into the deep end.