Kelpie-i

I'm sure Erny will agree that there is some really good feedback and some great stories on this thread on the prong. It think it worthy to mention that it was also due to the unfortunate mis-use of the tool ie. sharpening of tips etc by moronic idiots which assisted in bringing on it's ban.

Hi, Found this description of spondylosis on the net. I knew it had something to do with tissue growth of some sort.

Hi Pampa So sorry to hear of your pup's ordeal. My GSD (14 yo) was diagnosed with spondylosis back in 2002 at the base of his spine, near the start of the tail. From what the vet tells me, spondylosis is like a growth on the bone tissue than can be sort of 'spike' like.... if you get what I mean. The vet told me there was nothing much they could do for him other than watch him for pain etc. GSD's are prone to spondylosis and we were sort of lucky that it developed later on in his life however I must admit that it hasn't really caused him too much problem until just recently where it seems the spondylosis may be touching on his nerves and causing some pain. This has only occurred a few times and only when he's been lying down. He also suffers from mild arthritis but at his age, this is common. Unfortunately, this is all I can give you on spondylosis. Have you tried doing a google search on it??

Luka, if I could add my opinion to this discussion. I think what you need to be thinking about is not whether the club/school is affiliated to any particular organisation, but rather if the training style suits you and your dog. You can attend an accredited trianing organisation, regardless of "how many years experience" they have in training, but at the end of the day, if their training technique is not the right one for your dog, it could have potentially disastrous effects on what you wish to achieve later on. Check out as many affiliated and non-affiliated places as you can, watch the demeanour of the dogs, watch the training styles closely and then decide which one is right for you. In addition to all that, if you prefer a place who has instructors capable of providing you with behaviourial advice, then an accredited training establishment would be the place to go.

Bosko, you're right when you say that you will be told to seek the services of a professional for your dog's problem, however could you please enlighten us as to the type of anxiety, fear and aggression you mention. Is to to other dogs or to humans or to everything in general??

To be anxious is to have a fear of the unknown which is usually brought on by experience/environment/up bringing and is less likely to be genetic. However when a dog has weak nerves, this can certainly be due to genetics. The lay term is "skittish", although some people use the word "anxious" to describe the characteristic of the behaviour. Genetics is such a powerful force in determining the behaviour of a dog, one that is all too often overlooked by many behaviourists. It calculates to 70% of the dog's overall behaviour. Cesar Milan states that there is no such thing as an anxious dog, only an anxious owner who transfers this anxious energy to the dog. Interesting thought!

Just thought I'd bump this up in case it was missed by some!

Here's my contribution... Approx 4 years ago I had a client who wanted to attend training classes with her black labrador. The main issue was that her dog pulled severely on the lead. This wasn't her only problem.... The lady suffered severe back problems and arthritis in one of her wrists so walking the dog was a nightmare each time, so she stopped walking the dog for a while. She purchased a Halti as advised to her by someone only to have the dog roll on the ground with his full weight each time she put it on. She advised that she tried the Halti for a couple of months and whilst the dog was beginning to get used to it, he still managed to pull and had also attained the new behaviour of rolling over on the ground each time she put it on. At one stage, the dog took her with him in one of his rolls which caused her to become bed-bound for a week with her back problem. She came to me in desperation as her husband didn't like the dog to start with and if she didn't take the dog out for regular exercise, it would become destructive due to frustration and boredom which would make him scream and hit the dog. After consultation with her I recommended a prong collar. Initially she wasn't sure about it as the look of it certainly scared her, but after a week of deliberation, she decided to give it a go. Almost instantaneously the dog stopped pulling and the lady was able to calmly walk the dog AND attend training classes each week which she thoroughly enjoyed. She even told me that her husband was beginning to like the dog more these days. Not so long after, the Govt announced the ban on prong collars and I advised her that she would no longer be able to use one due to the new legislation. I told her of the implications if she was caught using one which shocked her. Her very words were..."Well if I can't use one, then I just simply cannot walk him anymore as he will revert back to the way he was". She attempted to use a correction chain in the following weeks but the dog went back to his old habits and she just didn't have the strength to control him. That was the last I saw of her and the dog I contacted her about 3 weeks after she stopped attending classes and she told me that the dog was not being walked (she just physically couldn't) and that she was contemplating giving the dog away. Unfortunately, I do not know the outcome of the situation. I can only hope that she has rehomed the dog to someone who was more physically capable of controlling him. This is but one of my prong collar stories, however this one was probably the most saddening of them all as this lady's ability to walk her dog was taken away from her by legislation gone mad.

Okay everyone , we have set a date for another Herding Clinic to be held in Melbourne. This time, we have set it for Sunday to cater for those who cannot make it to a Saturday clinic. Sunday 8th July 2007 9am to 4.30pm Cost is $70 for the day (per dog) Location: Diggers Rest. Anyone who is interested, please PM me or click on the link below. Thanks

Good explanation Mystiqview. I was sort of lost for words trying to explain how to bring the dog to circle via left. See again, I'm not making sense but I know what I'm trying to say......LOL!

CTD, I'm curious as to why you use the phone book. Does it create a different effect/style?? I once saw a dog do the military sit so fast, he almost took the handlers knee caps out....ouch!

We teach it using luring techniques. Start with the dog in a sit in front and then use a food lure or something the dog likes to lure him round. It's not difficult to do but may take a number of repetitions for the dog to get it. Others here may offer different techniques for the military flip. Looks fantastic when the dog gets it!!

LL, what exactly do you mean by rake conditioning? In what context do you refer it to ie. using the rake to guide the dog back and over or do you refer to something else?? Don't worry, you're not the only one

Totally agree HR. It should be a "healthy" fear, one of respect as opposed to one of fear for life (if you get what I'm saying). This is not always going to be the case. Good leadership sets the foundation for respect however some dogs will continue to test the boundaries in certain situations throughout their life, whether it be whilst out in public or in the training ground. If the owner has good leadership and handling skills, then that owner will be able to take control and rectify the situation more easily. Didn't Barbara Woodhouse make mention of "purely positive" trainers in one of her books many years ago? I cannot remember exactly what was written but she predicted that there would be many more uncontrollable dogs as a result of the "new trend" in dog training.

I have met a few people over the years who have come from "purely positive" schools that have unfortunately been asked to leave and given a refund due to their dog showing inappropriate behaviours. These people seek assistance and I can only imagine how upsetting it must be to for them to be told that there is no help for their dog. Some of these people may then be fortunate enough to find a school/club that will gladly take their dog on board and provide the necessary training to get the dog on track. Yet, it is the very schools/clubs who send these dogs away who are quick to ridicule those schools/clubs who use different methods in order to get the results. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Yes I have trained a pig before. It was a miniature pig (I forget the breed now...sorry). I used a clicker and lots of food to get him to recall and sit and also taught him to jump through a low hoop. Watch your fingers though, they don't exactly have the softest mouths!! Best to keep your hand wide open when offering treats as they tend to grab hold of your fingers. They are different to dogs in that they generally don't have any inclination to want to please you so you must always give them something in return for their efforts. Food reinforcements must be used continuously. I say go for it and have fun. It will certainly be a great learning experience for you. You don't have a nice garden do you???? LOL!

That was me!! Here is something that may help clear things up. Inducement means to "bring on" or to pursuade. Under the "banner" of Inducement are a number of techniques which are designed to "bring on" or pursuade the behaviour ie. luring, shaping/marking etc. These particular techniques imply that the dog offers these behaviours from his own free will. Which is the difference between inducement and compuslion. However, this is where the training matrix comes in....once the dog has been "induced" or pursuaded into doing something you want/like, then you apply R+ (which is part of the 4 quadrants) ie. give a treat, pat, praise etc to encourage the behaviour to occur more often. Once the dog knows the exercise/skill/behaviour very well and chooses not to comply, you can "correct" using either verbal or physical punishment which is also part of the four quadrants. The act of removing/withholding food treats or giving a physical punisher etc forms part of the practice of maintaining or removing a behaviour or action that either does or does not meet your criteria. The teaching matrix is designed to make you aware of the quadrants of reinforcement and is somewhat irrelevant to the actual "teachings" of a new behaviour which is what both Inducement and compulsion methods are used for. Hope this helps.

rhapsodical78, yes I did do the NDTF course way back when Jesus was a lad and I too have those notes. I do understand how it can all become confusing, especially when the example adds training methodologies as examples to the quadrant. The current discussion was about the use of corrections (either verbal or physical), not about the various quadrants of training. ;)

Sorry to butt in here....but just my 20c worth. Inducement methods are used for teaching purposes only, as are compulsion (guide, show, place) methods and marking/shaping methods. Neither have anything to do with punishment both + or -. We need to be very careful when using terminology to ensure that the words we are using are in line with whatever is being discussed ie teaching methods or maintenance methods. Otherwise we all start getting confused. ;) We should try not to compare a correction that comes from a human to one that comes from the dog's own species. Two different species communicating in two completely different ways. Yes, the dog does develop varying levels of fear towards both the handler and the correction. A correction is a correction and is designed to provide a level of discomfort and sometimes pain to increase/decrease behaviour. What do you think the dog is thinking? It's the law of learning...something is uncomfortable/unpleasant, you avoid it. Do you fear it...of course you do.

I'll be there minus my dogs this year So SM, Minty is free to run the hill climb race and win (grin!) I promise not to sabotage the race. Dasha, if you're watching the Kelpie Idol and you see a group of people cheering on a guy by the name of David and his BC x Dylan, that's us...so come over and say g'day!!

Agree Erny, I have never needed any more than a lovely flat collar and lead to teach a young pup this age the art of walking nicely on the lead.

Hi Squeak, yes "fibretech" is a made up term for the type of material. It is extremely comfortable to use. We do sell the leads made from the "fibretech" material you are after. Just follow the link to the website and go to the Equipment page.

BARF is very good but oh so time consuming to prepare. I'd give the Eagle Pack a try first and if there is still no change, then look at BARF. Eagle Pack does not contain any grain products, especially the fish formula which is made especially for dogs with allergies.

I am really......

Amen!!