Kelpie-i

Erny, for training purposes, espcially for ease of recall, I recommend a name with one syllable, that way you are not cutting the name short as we all tend to do and it flows off the tongue easier. Just my 20c worth. Hope you name the poor bugger soon....well at least before his first birthday

These 2 dogs clearly acted on pack instinct, nothing more, nothing less. Let's stop jumping up and down and recognise that ALL dogs have the potential to kill. They are an animal first and foremost with an in-bred instinct to hunt. Unfortunately we may not like to hear this, but it's the way it is. Small dogs, cats, rats, they can all be fair game to some dogs, especially when there are two dogs razzing each other up. Is digging under a fence to get to the "prey" item normal dog behaviour, heck yes, especially if this behaviour is coaxed on by pack mentality! This behaviour is as normal as you and I taking a shower every morning. Is it acceptable in society, no it's not, but that's not a reason to give these dogs the death sentence. These dogs have had 2 successful 'hunts' and will do this again, therefore separating the 2 dogs and re-building the lost bond between owner and each dog individually is the first priority. These guys are now a team and will continue to work as a team, unless a leader can step in and stop the behaviour pattern. My recommendation is to fix the fences so that escape is not possible, then I would emply the services of an extremely good trainer/behaviourist and work through the problems of leadership and training.

Oooooh Erny, you didn't tell me that puppy was not long on its way when I spoke to you earlier this week......Hmmmm. He's gorgeous and has trouble written all over his face. Welcome to the world of puppy rearing, you know how it goes...... 1. Sleepless nights 2. Puppy wee and poo all over the place until house training is well estabslished 3. Plenty of toys to trip over and break your ankle on whilst you take him out for toilet at 3am! 4. Vet visits 5. Mouthing 6. Forget the garden....that's history It's enough to send you to the land of :rolleyes: and Seriously, congratulations on the arrival of Hank the Tank (don't know if you've named him yet but thought I'd add my suggestion). I cannot wait to meet him.

Monelite....where's the video link??

Bloody Hughely Wirthless....hasn't someone shot him yet???

Pandagirl, LuvMyCav has hit the nail on the head. There is no easy way around this and unfortunately no lotions or potions are going to cure. Sometimes patterns are disrupted and we need to be patient as we re-establish. Simply take dog out for toilet, no speaking, no cuddling, no interaction and most certainly no bones, then straight back to bed. Allow pup to have the last drink about 1 hour before bed and take out for last wee of the night just before bed time. It's the hard yards that will do the trick.

In this case, did it not help in keeping the dog away from what could have been a fatal situation??

Like squeezing a watermelon through an exhaust pipe.....piece of cake Haven!! Seriously, I know exactly how you feel. Put your feet up and relax as much as you can.

It must be just me just being tired from a busy day at dog training, but I don't think I understand what you mean here Denis_C. Can you or someone please clarify so that my fizzled mind can understand.

Gemibabe, I most certainly respect your feelings, but please look at it this way..... What do you think a young lamb that has just been born and is being torn apart by a rogue dog feeling?? Sorry, I refer to stock chasing and killing as this is a very serious problem for farmers. Most of the time it is the neighbours dog that causes the problem. Some of these dogs are shot on the spot by farmers....what then, are the dog's owners feeling? We need to set aside our emotions when making decisions as to whether a dog's actions and the consequences of those actions will harm others both directly or indirectly. In this case, I would have absolutely no hesitation in administering a very well timed and aversive stim to the dog. Saves the sheep, saves the dog, saves a lot of heartache!

Haven, to be technically correct, leg/paw lifting (alone) can be an appeasing signal. Coupled with other behaviours/signals it indicates submission (no threat) and to appease the threat. As mentioned, it must be read in conjuction with signal clusters - not on it's own! Off Topic: Have you had bubs yet??? Monelite, I don't think it was this type of leg lifting the OP was referring to. Your dog looks like he/she is ready for some sort of action....standing position with upright body as well as being slightly forward, ears forward, intense facial expression..these are the clusters you must be reading IN CONJUCTION WITH the leg lift.

I would like to see a clicker used to distract dogs who are chasing and killing stock!! Don't get me wrong, I loooove the clicker!! But it would be a useless as 'tits on a bull' in this situation!

Monah, from the above statement, it could be that your pup was not socialised properly and/or suffered a bad experience with other dogs before you got her, therefore it may not be genetic. Either way, you treat it with the same training and philosophy.

Hi Monah You've had some interesting replies here to your problem. This most certainly sounds like fear aggression and persephone is correct when he/she says that the lead restricts the dog's means of escape, therefore escalating the 'fight' response. I can tell you that any form of correction using the lead will definitely make the problem worse. Admittedly, a leash correction can work, but only if the reason for the reaction is 'learned' through training and or self reinforcement with no element of fear involved. Jen Martin, I disagree with your statement. Fear tendencies can be genetic and passed down to pups. Think about who you are most like....your mum or your dad? A dog with weak nerves and tendency for fear does not know how to deal with this, therefore will resort to protecting himself the only way he has been genetically programmed to. Behaviour is calculated as such: 70% genetic, 20% Environment, 10% training/learned. A dog with genetically fearful tendencies, will usually start to show the early signs of aggression at around 5 or so months of age...some younger, despite the owner's best efforts to socialise the dog as a young pup. This, unfortunately intensifies as the owners increase efforts to 'socialise' the dog. However the more the dog 'practices' the aggressive behaviour, the more it reinforces to the dog that this is what he must do. You can physically beat a 'dominant' dog to the point of submission (relax everyone...merely an example) and you can neutralise the dog to people and dogs so that he only sees high value in what he has been socialised to. Therefore, submission and/or dominance can be modified and are not entirely genetic. Dominance is situational specific, not a personality. Monah, as recommended, get onto a good behavioural trainer who is an expert in aggression to come and see you and your dog. You may not be able to 'cure' the problem but a good trainer will be able to teach you techniques on desensitising to leash tugs and teach alternative behaviours to your dog.

Don't worry to much as she is still young and will get the hang of it soon enough, having said that however...... 1. She probably hasn't made the connection between the verbal and action. 2. Luring is fantastic but can be problematic if you don't remove the lure quickly enough. Rule of thumb: 10 successful repetitions with the lure then commence fading. Try 2 or 3 reps with lure in hand afterward position your hand as though you had a treat in it and use exactly the same action you would to 'down' her. As soon as she is goes into position, give the command "Drop" or "down", whatever you are using. Give the treat with the other hand. To keep her down, throw the treats on the ground directly in between her feet so that she eats the treats and remains in position. Continue to do this, giving plenty of treats first up then start to minimize the number of treats and the timing of them. You will find she stays in position longer. Don't forget to use a release word so that she knows when to get up!

Yes the NDTF course, whilst very comprehensive, will only just touch on the subject and teach you the main signals seen in most displays. There is so much involved in this subject that it would take you years to learn it fully. I'm still learning too! If you cannot get to Melbourne's 3 day seminar, then there is a 2 day'er in Sydney. If you're interested, PM me your email address and I will pass onto the person looking after the Sydney seminar. Enjoy the book!

Lord Midol, assuming this is not a taught behaviour ie. as a trick etc, then I would concur that pawing or lifting of any of the front legs, seen mainly in some young pups, is known as active submissive display. However, this must be teamed with other signals to make clusters that are interpreted as submissive posturing on the whole, such as lip licking, ears back, sitting or rolling over on their back. Of course, if we are talking lifting the paw onto the back of another dog, then this is not submission. A book I recommend is "Canine Body Language...a photographic guide" by Brenda Aloff which is sensational and full of illustrations and full of information on the subject. Brenda is coming out in February 09 for a 3 day seminar and an entire day will be spent talking about dog's body language and their clusters. Edited coz I carnt spel!!

Hi Kowai I've only just stumbled onto this thread. You are not limited to just VCA run clubs, we offer agility training at our school on Saturday afternoons at Keilor Park which is only just on 35 min drive from Werribee. Our agility instructors are all experts in their field, a few hold their masters titles, so you can rest assured you are not getting instruction from monkeys. What's more, our class sizes are smaller so you will get the attention you need and even some 1:1 advice. Since we are privately owned, the instructors are paid for their time, so the only difference here are the fees you pay. Check out the link below and don't hesitate to PM me for more information.

Some good suggestions and recommendations given here. It is not uncommon for some dogs to suddently start reacting at other dogs around this age. The reasons for this can be many and varied so it is important that you are given a correct diagnosis for the problem. Your dog will require more socialisation, albeit the type that is tailored to your dog and you will need to learn certain handling skills to assist you. If the bark is high pitched, then it is possible that your dog is excited, but if the pitch is low and there is tension around his mouth then this tells a different story. Good luck with your training.

I cannot confirm if Kintala are picky with breeds, but I can confirm that they are picky with problematic type dogs. They do not accept dogs that are aggressive and not well socialised. I've had a number of people come to us who were given the 'sorry cannot help you' with their problem dogs by Kintala.

ellz, I would bet that at some stage he has watched another dog and if absolutely not, then he may be a highly territorial dog, which is instinctual and has self taught in order to mark higher on the surfaces. But leg cocking itself, is NOT instinctual.

I find that the clicker teaches dogs to problem solve/think a little quicker than conventional training. Your dog will always be trying to work out how to get the treat and will give you the whole repertoire of tricks, which for some is annoying, but I actually enjoy watching my dogs use their brains. I use both marker word and clickers, dependent on the situation, but no amount of marker words will make my dog's eyes light up like the clicker can. It has a special something about it. Anyone can use a clicker, but you must learn to be mindful of timing. Although from the many tools and techniques I have used and seen in the past, if I happen to click at the wrong time, I can rest assured that I will NOT cause any significant, detrimental damage to my dog.

Promptly put him back outside the minute he gets up and doesn't listen to you. Worked a treat for my GSD who was doing the same thing!

afromaiko, Some of it is and some of it isn't. Anxiety is a true feeling that dogs feel, however what leads to this anxiety is usually a dog who has been given top spot in the home. These dogs are usually somewhat demanding of attention, even sometimes pushy. The fact that they suffer the anxiety when you leave is due to the fact that they are unable to control your movements ie. when you come and go. The exercises you are implementing are correct and along the lines of what most behaviourists (vet or trainer based) will give you, along with other programs and tips. Here is an interesting link to an article written by a very well respected behavioural trainer in the the States, Bill Campbell. Read the entire article, paying particular attention to the parts titled: "Applying Positive Imagery to solve 'separation anxiety'" and "The Program". This article will give you a very clear understanding of what is going on in your dog's mind. Here is the link ETA, This is a general basic program only and does not take the place of a private consult with a behavioural expert who can tailor a program specific to your dog's problems and requirements.

afromaiko, please do take the recommendations on board, but please don't rule out a good behavioural trainer as they are, in many cases, just as good as a Vet behaviourist but not as expensive. Some good ones who service your area are (and in no particular order): Judi Buchan from ProK9 and Tamara from Underdog Training. Good luck with whatever path you decide to take!