Kelpie-i

I just came back from the USA where I attended a 3 day seminar with Prof Ray Coppinger himself at Wolf Park on this very matter. Did you know that puppies who are NOT socialised (ie: exposed to their entire world) during their critical socialisation period which is the first 16 weeks of life, actually have smaller brain sizes and fewer "connections" (in layman's term: the capacity to 'learn to learn') that those pups who are exposed and well socialised from a young age."?? Socialisation is not just about creating a "friendly" dog, but more so creating a dog with a good size brain and is capable of learning and processing information faster and on a more permanent basis.

I agree Danois, it is definitely open to interpretation and we may certainly be reading into this too deeply. Laws are put into place for many different reasons and this particular law is quite obviously targetting protection trained dogs, not the ordinary every day pet dog who loves a tug game. I highly doubt you would be taken to court merely because you played a general game of tug of war with your dog. The cost/benefit ratio to do this would not be favourable for the law makers.

The more he practices this behaviour, the better he will become at it. As such, he may commence broadening the situations in which he displays this behaviour due to arousal levels. Do not place him in a position where he can practice this behaviour would be the first bit of advice, second, as suggested, tighten leadership with him.

If this is correct, then the selling of plush and squeaky toys and other "tug" related items would need to be prohibited from pet stores.

Megan, pups have 3 main fear periods during their development and growth. It is quite possible that your pup is going through the 2nd fear impact period at this stage. Things that he was normally fine with, suddenly become scary, with the pup showing anything from mild to severe fear tendencies. The best advice I can give you is to carry on without too much reaction from you when your pup shows fear. Ignore the fearful behaviour but encourage any "sticky beak" behaviour to encourage him to explore yet again. Dogs normally snap out of fear periods quite quickly but some learning can and does occur which is all dependant on the owner's actions and reactions when it is occurring.

Sounds like Barkbusters.....far from "behaviourists" IMO! The advice given to you here, freerunning, is sound, seek the advice of a professional who has had experience in dealing with these issues. This is a serious issue which should not be left to fester. You say she's getting closer each time, this should warn you that you have a a potential law suit on your hands.

Hi Vicki Long time no "speak". I am not sure if the orignal thread was about sending the dog off to herd ONLY, or whether the word "work" constituted other activities? So I'll add my 20c worth hoping that I'm on the mark. If I took a working bred pup that was born on a farm away to the city before it even saw sheep, would that pup (and later dog) know that he or she was meant to herd? Probably not. But if that dog became a destructive dog due to boredom and pent up drive, would other activities such as agility or flyball satisfy that urge?....most certainly. Even a frisbee or ball game would do the trick as long as the instinct was given an outlet and it wouldn't matter what that outlet was. If we go to the more "watered" down instincts of the working breeds (ie any bench lines or breeds no longer used like the Corgie), they may also show inclination to herd and chase, as this is a hard wired instinct, but as you state, that does not mean that they will be any good at herding, or even enjoy it for that matter. The drive we need to satisfy is prey drive, which gives cause to chase, therefore the outlet should include anything that involves running and/or chasing something...and not necessarily sheep. This would apply to both working bred and working breeds with high drives. I get these cases all the time where people tell me that they have a BC or an ACD that would make a great working dog because it rounds up the kids. I tell them that unless the dog has a natural herding ability and of course, workability, then that may not be the case. I will recommend that they get involved in a dog sport or even teach their dog to fetch (at the very least) to help satisfy drive. How many times have I heard this..."my BC was very destructive so I gave him to my uncle who owns a farm with sheep to go and work". I wonder how many of these dogs actually end up "working"? There is a distinct difference between high prey drive and herding ability.

I'm reading this thread with interest.....the answer to your last question Corvus is NO! Removing the symptom without removing the cause is asking for deep trouble...like a hidden time bomb that you'll never go when it will go off. This trainer is only partly correct and it would depend heavily on circumstances. If the behaviour is due to genetics, then yes, you will never remove the hard wired tendency for aggression, not matter what you do. "Tendency" being the operative word here not the act of aggression itself. Although you can certainly modify it to a manageable state with the correct counter-conditioning methods and training. If the behaviour is learned, then it can be modified with a high degree of success but the handler must never become complacent. If the behaviour is due to a bad association, the above also applies. In all three scenarios, the aggression will always hold a card in the dog's inbuilt filing system, with varying degrees depending on the circumstances, however this is not a reason to merely let things go and hope for the best. As I mentioned, proper training and counter conditioning will help immensly in all 3 scenarios. As far as the trainer advising your friend to apply corrections whenever the dog shows aggressive behaviour, then my answer to Corvus above will apply. The services of a professional behaviour specialist will be the call here.

4Paws, working with a DA dog is like baking a souffle....there will be days when it goes well and then there will be days.. It is very normal for your dog to experience spontaneous recovery at any stage during the training process. This is when the dog makes a choice to revert back to his old behaviours. There is nothing wrong with this and comes part and parcel with the rehab process. It also serves as a very good reminder to never become complacent. Are you able to tell me what has drawn your trainer to the conclusion that the aggression is "learned"? If you have been making good progress up until the incident, I would not be looking at changing your methods just yet. I would be more inclined to analyse the situation and you may just find that there were probably certain triggers that set off the behaviour that you did not notice. When dealing with DA dogs, a physical correction is only effective if the dog has been taught and mastered an alternative behaviour. Correcting a dog for behaving the only way he feels he should is unfair if he knows no other behaviour to revert to. If you have established good foundation work and taught the alternative behaviours to your dog, then a correction will work in "reminding" the dog what behaviour he should have chosen. Don't despair 4Paws, just simply get straight back to it!

Yes I used to have a dog like this many years ago and it wasn't an easy dog to live with. Dogs who commence life challenging the leader/s, will continue to challenge all their lives. They are leader or "dominant" type dogs by nature, just like some humans are very strong natured and go on to become powerful business people. This type of dog requires an experienced handler who will provide this dog with loads of stimulation and work, as this is the only way to live with this type of dog. Stepping up leadership skills and keeping them at a high level is also imperative. I say all of the above, provided this pup is well socialised and is not displaying this behaviour through any form of fear.

I agree PF!! It's also the way society has been forced to perceive the different tools. Head collars are recommended by organisations like RSPCA, therefore they MUST be kind to the dog. Other tools such as e's and PPC's are not. The general public is not well versed in the art of dog psychology, therefore they are unaware of contingencies like negative reinforcement. To them, it's what the pet stores market and also what organisations like RSPCA want you to use.

I would be asking your friends/neighbours not to put their faces too close to your dog's face. This sort of behaviour (on the part of the human) is generally seen as "rude" and invasive to some dogs, especially coming from strangers. The 2nd growl, being that it occurred whilst Poppy was sitting on your lap, would indicate a leadership issue. I believe the growls were the result of 2 separate situations.

Kavik this is excellent news and a huge breakthrough for both you and Zoe. Never give up! Personally, I think every dog trainer should own a DA dog and work with it. A big statement to make isn't it? But I truly believe you'll never know what it's like to be on the other side of the lead with these dogs unless you work with one that you have emotional ties with on a regular basis. Not just that, it's challenging and teaches you a hell of a lot about dogs. I second Superminty's recommendation of the Brenda Aloff book. It's sensational and very indepth.

poocow, I would suggest doing the NDTF course (or any course) as this would look favourable for when it comes time to apply. It is very difficult to get into the DDU although they do advertise vacancies every now and again, but not very often. If you get into AQIS as an inspector, you can put your hand up to help rove with the DDU which will assist you with your goal. Good luck

I must admit i have found this too....no more burnt patches of grass ever since switching diet of all 4 dogs to Eagle Pack a couple of years ago. Before that...well you can just imagine!

Hi Poochmad, Erny hits the nail on the head and I wouldn't be too bothered about it, except if you see it as a potential problem or bother in the future as mentioned. The word "dominance" is thrown around so much by some people that it can make any dog owner nervous each time their dog does something that is normal dog behaviour. Dominance is situational specific in that the dog 'dominates' or asserts dominance over something that he sees of high value ie food, a bitch on heat etc. Standing or lieing on your feet can be seen as 'dominance' but only if leadership is un-balanced and needs to be in taken in context with other behaviours and actions on the part of the dog. Dogs will place their paws on the shoulders of other dogs to assert dominance which can be transposed to humans, but I doubt very much that your young pup is doing that, although a good leadership check never goes astray.

KK, I am shuddering at the very thought of trusting this dog with just an e-collar and no muzzle. Has the attack affected your dog??

Incredible Jen....yours and those on the 60 mins story are truly amazing. Now we just have to convince the medical boards to start taking notice.

Aimee, congratulations on your new pup. Puppy Preschool's run at vet clinics are usually (but not always) run by vet nurses who may or may not have much knowledge about dog behaviour and training etc. Some are very good but I have heard some stories that are enough to make anyone's hair stand on end. Unfortunately on many occassions, we trainers have been faced with "fixing" the problems created by some PPS's. Remember that most 4 or 5 weeks courses are just that....short, crash courses in socialisation and very basic skills. You will still need to continue training and socialising your pup once you finish this type of course in order for the pup to retain/enhance skills. Unfortunately some are under the false impression that this is all the training a dog requires. Things to watch out for in a PPS are : Alpha rolls (this should not be part of puppy training as this is an antiquated method from the stone age). Off lead play (unless the pups are separated into small groups of similar size and temperament), otherwise no! Extremely compulsive techniques (Extreme force should not be used to make puppy do anything) If any of the above occur, grab your pup and run for the door! Good luck and enjoy your pup!

Hello LukeW One of my instructors, who holds many obedience and agility titles with her dogs (UDX is one of them!), might be able to assist you with this. If you send me a PM with your details I can pass them on to her if you wish. She is excellent at what she does and is open to many different methods.

Ditto, ditto, ditto!!

I too have had clients tell me about their ordeals and their lack of satisfaction with previous trainers and/or training schools but I suppose this comes with all different types of organisations and is not limited to dog training. You can never make everyone happy and I think it is a "if the glove fits" situation with dogs, problems and anecdotes. Personally, when told of unhappy training stories, I don't usually ask who or where from as I really don't wish to know who it was. I just usually get on with the job at hand and show the client another method or 2. However on several occasions, if the stories they tell are absolutely horrific, then I may ask who it was. Would I tell the trainer/organisation about the complaints? Well that would depend on the number of complaints received about the same person/organisation and the type of complaints recieved. On the other hand, if the complaint was about me and/or my organisation, I would definitely appreciate someone telling me about their dissatisfaction as it would be the only way of knowing that I have made someone unhappy and be able to try and rectify the situation.

Well look who the cat dragged in...... Did you finally find a smoke signal that connects to the internet?? :rolleyes:

Hey Erny I have a few suggestions for names (not sure if you're sticking to a certain theme or something): Cruz (I really like this name) Kane Erny (LOL!) Kyle .......................................by Sunday!!!!

Ridgy Girl, I was referring more so for the ease of the handler, not necessarily whether the dog responded or not to single syllable names. Sorry if this confused you. C'mon Erny.....we need a name by Sunday (I know you work better with deadlines) Is he doing zoomies yet??