Kelpie-i

Spotted Devil, I'm sure Bud has been reading my threads over night and took particular note of Ziggy's threat to come and hoover up his food....coz as Erny said, he ate a small amount this morning which is excellent. Yes he did have a bark at the fence.....and usually I tell them to shut up, but this time I was yelling "yay, good boy Bud...keep it going!!" :D Luckily I don't have neighbours to worry about. As Erny said, he is certainly much better and has been a little more 'mobile' today. So fingers crossed it was only a nasty stomach bug and nothing more. I have organised the referral for the ultra sound and will make the appointment with Werribee as soon as I receive it. I still want to have this done to make sure that all is fine....worry wart I am!! Thanks heaps to everyone, once again, for all your well wishes and for the great advice....I think all those healing vibes made their way here and in good time too! I'll post back once the ultra sound has been had...but only if there is anything to report. In the meantime, here's to feeling better

Thanks Cosmolo, it's a long story and I will most certainly type it when I am in the right frame of mind. I've just offered him dinner and he is still refusing it. The vet said he ate a little bit of chicken earlier this morning (which he vomited up) but he is certainly not interested in taking any food again tonight...(sigh!)

Oh my I am honestly overwhelmed with the well wishes...thank you thank you!!!! Bud is at home and has perked up a little today and began to eat little bits of chicken but continues to vomit unfortunately. At this stage we are treating it as a bad case of gastro but the vet is concerned about his weight loss over the last month, the small forming lumps and increased pain in his abdomen. Bloods came back normal so no infection but they tell me that does not rule out the fact that it could be someting more sinister and wants to run an ultra sound to check for tumours etc., mainly because of his age. So until the ultra sound is done (which I will organise tomorrow), I will continue to treat it as gastro and feed small amounts of boiled chicken and rice and keep him as comfortable as possible. I feel somewhat helpless at the moment as there is nothing much else I can do for him. Buddy is a very special dog to me (my nobleman) and one day I will tell tell the story on how he saved my life. I will keep you posted if there are any further developments, but just wish to say THANK YOU again for your healing wishes and words of comfort. They certainly help! Trish

Thanks heaps guys. I just rang to check on him and they tell me he is "comfortable" but still not taking food. They haven't run the tests as yet. The place is a 24 hour emergency vet so I take comfort in knowing that there will be someone with him overnight. Spotted Devil, did your dogs show the same symptoms? How long before they were back to normal?

I know this probably belongs in another section like Health, but I tend to frequent the training section more and therefore ask for some healing thoughts from those who may care. I am beside myself tonight as my 15 year old GSD (yes he's an old boy) is in hospital tonight and is not doing very well at all. He's been losing weight over the last few weeks but I simply put it down to his activity level when around the kelpies, so I tried increasing his food intake but this failed to put weight on him. As most know, it's been stinking hot here in Melbourne over the last few days and he suddenly became very lethargic, vomiting and stopped eating. I initially put it down to the heat for the first day and thought that he'd be okay but he got progressively worse. He has a lump around his rib area which he's had for years. I had a biopsy done on it last year and it came back as a fatty lump which was nothing to worry about. But I did notice that there are another set of smaller lumps growing around and "behind" the larger lump which don't feel right. He is also demonstrating some pain in that area. He's wobbly when standing, seems extremely disoriented...sort of "spaced out" and not very responsive to his name. So I decided it was time for a vet check. At this stage they are keeping in for overnight observation and are pumping him with some fluids. They will be running some bloods and other tests to try and find what the problem is. I haven't stopped crying all afternoon as I fear the worst....and I hope I am wrong. Fingers crossed it's nothing serious. I think this really serves to remind us just how precious our pets are and how we should treasure each minute with them.

LOL to the above Cosmolo. Anyone can call themselves a "dog trainer" or "behaviourist", regardless of how many years they have been training dogs for, but I personally believe you need to have ample knowledge of theory coupled with many years handling experience (with many varied dogs and problems) before the term "dog trainer" is true and justified. My biggest worry Cosmolo, and I'm sure you see this too, are some people who complete either their Delta or NDTF courses, who have all of 5 mins experience, yet they go out and call themselves dog trainers. I don't know about you, but this absolutely terrifies me.

Ummm, that's because it IS dancing with dogs, or canine freestyle to be technical and I think it's an extremely wonderful thing to watch. These people put in a lot of time and effort to achieve this with their dogs, with some routines taking up to 12 months, sometimes more to perfect. The commitment and training time is not much different to that of a sniffer or police dog really. Thanks for sharing Tangerinedream.

Here is the general "rule of thumb": If a dog is genuinly fearful, then he or she will not take food, not matter how hungry they are. If the dog takes food, then you can safely assume that the behaviour is now one that is chosen and favourable to the dog. It will be interesting to see if she eats in the presence of your dad.

My 4 dogs get fed together without too much problem, however the rules are extremely strict at meal times. When one finishes, he or she must leave the area immediately, they are not allowed to come within coo-ee of the others who are still eating. One by one they finish and leave. It's more about micro-managing each dog rather than trying to manage all of them together. However since this takes some time to accomplish therefore much safer and easier to feed in separate rooms.

:cool: Oh my Nekhbet, that is so funny. Of course you were secretly practicing your backflips for "So you think you can Dance"..looking forward to seeing you on the show ;)

Same as everyone else's replies. A general set of rules for all to maintain harmony, although I must say that my 15yo GSD is a little more spoilt than the others....well he deserves to be :wink: ....he's old, arthritic, going deaf and blind yet still a very noble gentleman

I agree with Cosmolo 100%. Puppy free for all, even if it's slowly introduced can be thwart with danger. Puppies should be split into groups according to temperament and then watched closely. Any puppy who looks terrified and runs for his life is not having a good time. Get some professional help, or speak with your instructor so that you can rectify the problem before it turns into something much worse. Cosmolo, I am going to be attending Ian Dunbar's seminar next week so hopefully he will make mention of his 'feed whilst frightened' sentiments...would be interesting to learn why he states this.

Interesting account Corvus, we just need to be careful not be be seen as anthropomophising

If they seen quite happy and content with it, then let it be. Mouth licking is used to elicit regurgitation of food, although this process of obtaining food is no longer required from our domesticated dogs, the motor pattern still exists within the dog's instinct. I would dare say your dog is either enjoying the "taste" of the other dog's mouth or it may even be grooming related behaviour. I don't think it is in any way linked with feelings of intimacy.

double post

There is no actual "hard and fast" rule with the clicker, only that if you click, you must treat - no exceptions! This is why the clicker is excellent for teaching or shaping new behaviours with your dog. The dog is on a continous schedule of reinforcement when using a clicker. I have a simple rule with regards to release words: If you cue it (ie the dog knows the exercise in its entirety) then you should release If you are shaping it (ie there are many facets of behaviours which need to be chained to create the entire sequence) then you don't release during the teaching phase. Therefore when it comes to the clicker, if shaping a behaviour and/or teaching a new skill, I don't use a release word at that stage, but I click/treat the dog whenever he either gives me the position, heads closer to the position or offers one part of the sequence of the behaviour. Once he reliably gives me the behaviour, then and only then, you can remove the clicker from the equation, put the reward on an intermittent or random schedule of reinforcement and introduce the release word. :cool: Of course, if you now wish to add duration to the exercise, then you delay the click, as trishalouise states. The above is merely an example of how I use the clicker, others may give you other suggestions and techniques. Warning....clicker training can be a highly addictive way of training for both owner and dog and can be a health hazard. Dogs have been known to stand dangerously close to their owners, causing "congestion of space" syndrome, as well as constant "nagging to get that damned clicker to click" syndrome which may require hospitalisation in some instances. Symptoms are: total excitment, offering of entire repertoire of behaviours, some barking and a strong inlcination to always want to be around you. We strongly recommend consulting with your health practitioner before implementing this type of training...

Thanks for your post Corvus, it's very interesting. What you've written about the different personality types ie. more confident or not wanting to take risks etc, is exactly what I was trying to say, although you've written it a lot better than I ever could. I only wish to had recorded the seminar as there was loads more information that I was not able to take down, nor remember that was vital to this thread, but nonetheless, it was interesting to hear the different opinions. Is the dog training/enthusiast world ready for a change of idea and come away from the belief of pack hierarchy theory just yet....who knows! :D

I worked with a dog just the other day who still carries the scars of the head collar on his nose. Apparently all the fur and skin had rubbed off so much it turned into a red raw lesion (sp?). Owners were beside themselves especially as the packaging stated it was "humane" ;) They might have had it on too tight but good grief... what an ordeal for that dog and it still didn't stop his pulling!

Hi ho, only just took the time to read this thread...well not all of it but most of it. Spotted devil, you are right in that when trying to discuss R+, R- etc, some people refer to these in an emotive sense, rather than the scientific sense. This, I believe, is where it makes it very frustrating for those who understand the scientific concept and discuss it in that term, only to be given an "emotive" based comment from others who may not understand it. When I was learning it, I found it easy to follow this formula: Positive: to add/give Negative: to remove Reinforcement: increases behaviour Punishment: decreases behaviour Add them together and you get: Positive Reinforcement: adding/giving something to increase behaviour (give food, praise, pat etc) Positive Punishment: adding/giving something to decrease behaviour (verbal or lead correction etc) Negative Punishment: removing something to decrease behaviour (remove food, praise, pat etc) Negative Reinforcement: removing something to increase behaviour (removal of the application of sensation or pressure) I don't believe in "positive only" trainers...just like I don't believe in Santa Clause

I once watched a training video with Patricia McConnel and a few others, sorry the names escape me...but they worked on this and called it "Life Reward Training". A life reward is anything that is within nature and its surrounds, basically something that we cannot simulate or control ie. the joy of butt sniffing, grass sniffing, playing with others etc. The idea was to have the dog sitting and focusing on the owner, regardless of how high the "life reward" temptation was, and then the dog would be released and allowed to and sniff or play. A good way to teach self control. Back to neutralisation, I think the only time I would neutralise a dog (if I absolutely had to) would be for serious work purposes, such as for police dog work etc. I don't think it serves much benefit in our everyday lives with our dogs, especially the regular companion dog. It is best for these dogs to hold positive values to people and other things, rather than risk a bad experience which might see the dog place a minus negative value onto everything related to whatever frightened or hurt him. IMO, it would be a much harder task to bring the value back to 0 with a neutralised dog who has had a bad experience, as opposed to a socialised dog who already has the positive (+) values well established.

Hi Erny, I wasn't making reference to the neutralisation process of service dogs, merely the housing and keeping of them. :p However since we are discussing neutralisation, assistance/guide dogs are most certainly fully socialised as young dogs. I do believe that other service dogs ie. police, customs and quarantine dogs etc may undergone neutralisation to a degree but how this is applied is unknown to me. I can always find out Yes correct Anita. Again, I was referring to the housing and keeping of these dogs once trained and working (from the other thread). Is it just me or am I typing things in Chinese these days....

Spot on Cosmolo! And can I also point out for the record that I did not say that service dogs (whether it be pollice, customs or otherwise) were neutralised, I was merely stating the point of how they are housed and generally kept. On many occassions customs and quarantine dogs are crated for as long as 5 to 6 hours before they are let out to work for approx 1 hour then back in again until the next flight arrivals. Once their handler's shift is over, they are driven to the kennels and kennelled until the next day.

Anita, it doesn't really have much to do with behaviour, but rather the association the dog has with the object etc. Neutralisation takes place when the pup is going through the critical stage of socialisation, therefore all circumstances which may CREATE a behaviour is either removed or never presented, therefore responsive behaviours never occur.

bj, just fyi, federal police dogs and police dogs are very different. When fully trained, these dogs do not play with other dogs. I also know that if a police dog is housed with the handler, that hander must not own another dog. I used to work for customs and am fully aware of how customs dogs are housed. I can tell you, that they don't romp around with other dogs. Quarantine dogs are housed in exactly the same way. I would dare say they were telling you porkie pies. Police dogs have only one handler and are not handled or played with by other people...perhaps for training purposes but not any time else. They most certainly do not play with other police dogs! One of my instructors actually trains dogs for ADA and has mentioned some of the problems they are experiencing with some of the dogs wanting to go off and say hello to other people and/dogs whilst working which is a real concern for them. Now whether this is a problem that has come about due over-socialiation or one that the handler has allowed to fester I cannot clarify. You may be one of the lucky ones who owns a very good assistance dog that is able to distinguish between work and play mode, but I do know, from my very reliable source, that over-socialisation may be causing some problems with service dogs. bj, if you wish to quote me, please do so correctly. I did not say "without neutralisation.....", what I said was that due to over-socialisation, some dogs become uncontrollable...and I wasn't even referring to assistance dogs in my sentence. Please correct yourself here. Can you please show me where I said "because YOUR dogs are not neutralised they are uncontrollable"??? No one said that dogs should be neutralised. You seem hell bent on misquoting people bj. Please get your facts right before hitting the send button.

Lead and Feather I feel your dog may have associated with "being good" only at dog training school. You must practice all of your obedience work EVERYWHERE, not just at dog training. This is the big mistake people make. Failing to practice obedience, ie. sits, recalls and other things at various places is a waste of your obedience time and money! You need to enforce what she knows and step up the leadership ladder....does your school offer a tailored socialisation/desensitiation program? bj, I can tell you that this is most certainly NOT the case. Each dog is kennelled separately and most police dogs may live with their handlers. The only time they are out and exercised is when they are training or working. These are strictly working dogs, not pet or even assistance dogs. I am not sure of the source of your information, but I will tell you this is completely incorrect. Guide and assistance dogs maybe, but not a police dog! Some police dogs are extremely dog aggressive....watch out other poochies! Just to clarify, it is not the process of raising or lowering value of behaviour, rather raising or lowering value to an object, person or other animal. Just for the record, I don't neutralise dogs and I don't see the value in a neutralised dog for a general companion pet or even a sporting dog, however the process is there and is used by those who thoroughly understand how it works. When done properly, the dog is still a dog and has just as much (if not more) fun than an overly socialised dog who is continously being told off for rushing people, jumping up and generally being out of control.