Wundahoo

MEMORIES "Not the least hard thing to bear when they go from us, these quiet friends, is that they carry away with them so many years of our lives. Yet, if they find warmth therein, who would begrudge them those years that they have so guarded? And whatever they take, be sure they have deserved." --- John Galsworthy --- Ollie and Staffyluv, thankyou for sharing your journey with us. Sometimes special dogs and remarkable people are brought together for a reason. Your selfless sharing of your knowledge and experience with this disease has been inspirational to us all. Thank you so much May Ollie's spirit be close by you always.

If your dog has been referred to a specialist at Murdoch Uni Vet Hospital it will ALWAYS see that specialist unless there is a very good reason for that particular person being unavailable at the time that your appointment was made. The Specialist Vets all have their own individual appointment slots and it is quite possible to see the same one each time in the referral practice. In fact, one vet will not see another vet's client unless the other is unavailable for a specific reason, usually an emergency or the vet might in fact be ill..... they ARE human you know !!!! In the General Practice Clinic (non-specialist facility), there is a rotation of Vets on Consults, just as there is with any other multi-Vet practice. It is possible to make an appointment with the Vet of your choice, as long as you are prepared to wait until the day that the G. P. Vet of your choice is rostered on ....... no different to many other Vet practices !!!! The Veterinary Hospital is part of the Veterinary School and is responsible in part for the training of Final Year vet students. It is interesting to note that Murdoch University veterinary School has a reputation as being one of the best in the world. It has recently been given an accreditation by the US which has never previously been given to any Vet School in the southern hemisphere. Each Vet will have a final year student working with them, and the vet will explain the details of the case to the student...... WITH the permission on the owner. To say that they are "just training to be Vets" is quite wrong !!!!! A final year Vet student is never permitted to care for a patient without a qualified vet FIRST having consulted with the owner of the animal, then thoroughly examining the animal, ordering tests and examinations for that animal and, having worked out a treatment and care plan, discussed all options, costs and possible outcomes with the owner. What is that old proverb...... you can please some of the people some of the time etc etc !!! Unfortunately, there will always be the occasional person who is not satisfied, however there are very, very many people who have animals that are alive and well today due to the care, compassion and enormous skills of the CURRENT vets and support staff at MUVH. It is really important to have faith in your Vet..... but a Vet is not the building where that PERSON practices, nor the personalities of those who may have previously worked there !!! You say that you are in Armadale. You could try Railway Avenue Veterinary Hospital in Kelmscott. They have a good reputation too. They also do lots of rescue work as well.

While I have never had a dog of my own suffer from chocolate toxicity, I do know of quite a few which have. It is NOT something that should be regarded lightly..... it can happen, and quite easily. The compound in chocolate that is toxic to dogs is theobromine. It is a central nervous system stimulant, and can cause signs of hyperactivity, hypersalivation, nausea and diarrhoea followed by seizures and death if sufficient is consumed. If a smaller amount is consumed, there can be non-lethal effects which can lead to chronic renal failure and other organ compromise. The amount of Theobromine differs according to the type of chocolate. "White" chocolate has almost insignificant levels, while milk chocolate containes about 150 mg per 100g. "Semi sweet" (dark) chocolate contains about 520 mg per 100g and cooking chocolate contains 1300mg per 100g. The toxic dose for theobromine in dogs is about 100-200 mg/ Kg. However, in some dogs, toxic signs have been reported at doses as low as 20mg/ kg, so it is safer to consider this as being a starting point for possible toxic signs. Theobromine is also found in caffiene compounds as well as "cocoa mulch" or coconut fibre used as mulch or pot liners in gardens. I know of a dog which suffered severe toxicity from eating the cocoa fibre mulch which was used on its owner's garden !!!! It is also thought that a cumulative effect is possible in those dogs which have very slow theobromine clearance rates. Not all dogs seem to metabolise the stuff as quickly as others. A chocky treat is OK now and again for dogs, but it isnt a good habit to fall into. By the way..... people metabolise the compound quite differently to dogs ....... thank heavens !!!! I am a chocoholic !!!!!!!!!! edit for S&G

Can just see the Cockers now, with the biggest drumstick in the world !!!!! They would think that it was "heaven on a stick" !!! :D :D ;)

Hi Flipping Kazza, One of the less accepted but sometimes very effective treatments for some of the discomfort that HD can produce is Trigger Point therapy. Because your dog will be using its muscles and tendons in a slightly different way than normal, either due to injury or now due to the onset of the disease process that is caused by HD, there can be some disruption to the normal way that muscles fatigue and recover. Trigger point therapy can sort out those things, and can make your dog far more comfortable. I dont know of a TP thereapist in your area, but it might be worth asking around. It does sound to me as though some of your dog's discomfort is muscle-based. As well as the TP therapy, there may be some basic physiotherapy that you can do help him warm up and cool down after exercise, just like an athlete with an injury. A doggy physio may be able to help there. Try the glucosamine, heat packs before and after exercise, and swimming may all help. Keep it up, and I'm sure that he will do well for you.

Hi Dru, Varus is a descriptive term used for the appearance that your Rotti pup had. I think that I replied to your original post about him, and said that I thought that it was probably carpal hyperflexion which was giving him that weird look. That apparent outward bend in the forelegs is commonly referred to as Varus deformity. The opposite is termed Valgus, where the feet turn outwards, the pup walks on the inside of the front feet, the pasterns are really flat and the foreleg bones appear to have a bow in them that is opposite to the direction of your pup's. Varus can be real or apparent, and in the case of carpal hyperflexion it is not a real deformity, but is an apparent one, caused by the tension of the ligaments that are out of synch with the growth rate of the long bones. Sorry if this is not very clear, but yes, your pup certainly did fit the carpal hyperextension syndrome, and was about as classic as you could get. Because it happens so quickly, people often think that their dog has broken its legs or something, or that the apparent deformity is of boney origin, when in fact it is all caused by the soft tissues not growing quickly enough (or the long bones growing too quickly, which ever way you want to look at it!!). In the case of your pup and that of Roxanne's often the quickest and best results are achieved by reduced exercise and most importantly a balanced and consistant diet. To be perfectly frank, those that I have had experience with did not really take any benefit from splinting. I think that it just made US feel better. I had some involvement with a whole litter of Great Dane pups who all developed carpal hyperextension syndrome. Some were splinted, and others were not.... there were 10 of them !!! There didnt seem to be any greater improvement in those which were splinted than in the pups which simply had their exercise reduced. My personal opinion is that splinting may in fact slow the recovery as it doesnt allow the muscles to take the full weight of the leg, and muscle development is also very important in this syndrome. It is something that will probably improve most rapidly with corrected diet and reduced exercise. As to hypertrophic osteodystrophy.... there are lots of opinions on that one. Some say that there is a genetic component to it, others say that it is due to a diet rich in nutrients, particularly protein, others say that it can often occur in young dogs after a bout of gastro. Nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism is one that can be caused by high protein diet which has also been supplemented with calcium to try to balance things up a bit !! This problem can also mess up a dog's kidneys as well as other vital organs if the problem is not corrected quickly enough. All in all, unless an owner is pretty well clued up on barf, the best thing that they can do for a dog with any of these problems is to get them onto a good quality balanced commercial dry puppy food specifically designed for slow growth, at least until the dog's metabolism begins to stabilise. If an owner wants to change to barf, then they need to be pretty sure of what they are doing, as dogs who get any of these syndromes have difficulty in juggling the various components of a barf diet to make the best of what is given to them. They need some pretty consistant and carefully regulated nutritional support to be able to grow into normal adults. Once that has happened, they should be able to cope with almost any diet, and most of them do spectacularly well on barf once they have stopped growing. They are dogs whose metabolism has been so messed about by an incorrect diet that they seem, as puppies, to have quite a sensitive balance.

Hi Roxanne, I've just had a look at this thread, and I think that from the appearance of your pup in the photos, he will be quite OK, providing that you get him onto the right diet. I think that his problem is not the same as the one that Dru has posted. The Rotti pup looks as though he had a Varus problem, caused by a discrepency in the growth rate between the ligaments (tendons) and the bones of his forelegs. That condition corrects almost as quickly as it happens. It can occur virtually overnight in a rapidly growing, active young dog, and can disappear almost as quickly. Your puppy looks to me as though it may have either a form of hypertrophic osteodystrophy or nutrional secondary hyperparathyroidism. Both can be corrected with a balanced diet that promotes slow growth rather than rapid growth. I think that the quickest way to get him back onto an even keel would be to feed him Eukanuba Growth orEukanuba Large Breed Puppy for a few weeks. If you think that he is beginning to stabilise, then switch him to a raw diet if you feel that it is appropriate or suited to you and the dog. At this stage, one of the most important things is that his diet is consistant in its nutrients and that it is balanced. Particularly important is the ration of protein to calcium/phosphorus. I definitley WOULD NOT begin to supplement him with calcium.... probably the owrst thing that you could do for him at this point. Did your Vet take xrays or a blood sample ???? Those would of most use in deciding what was going on, apart form simply looking at the pup !! Good luck with him, but I dont think that you will be having to make any terrible decisions for him in the near future, if you can get him onto an appropriate diet.

Hi V.A.H. and Jed. I'm on "night release" from the Salt Mines...have to check in tomorrow morning though!! V.A.H. ....tube feeding IS really scary the first time that you try it, but as long as you do it a couple of times with someone experienced to show you how, and you follow the rules as Jed has already explained, it seems so much easier than trying to bottle or dropper feed. It is actually far more energy efficient that either of the conventional ways and sometimes makes the difference between a really tiny or weak pup surviving or dying. It doesnt require any energy outlay from the pup and so ALL the nutrition that they get from the feed goes straight to the pup, not some of it being used to make up the difference that is expended by the effort of suckling from a bottle (or mum) or swallowing drop by drop. It is also much quicker and reduces the amount of handling time that sick, small or weak pups get and so allows for much better mothering time from the bitch. Because the pup is away from her for such a short period of time, the mother doesnt seem to get so bothered when a pup disappears and reappears some time later....no checking and inventory taking by the mum, or attempts by her to help 'cos she thinks that you are taking a jolly long time to get the job done!! The method that I use to determine how far the tube should go in is to measure from the tip of the nose, over the head, down the back to the edge of the last rib. When passing the tube, this distance, plus just a fraction more in some cases, will ensure that the tube is placed in the stomach. Like Jed, I also mark the tube with a texta pen. You should use the largest width tube possible as this also ensures that the tube fits into the oesophagus and not the trachea. The trachea is a narrower diameter than the oesophagus, which stretches. The trachea is a relatively rigid structure. It is important to remember that as the pup grows the length of the tube needs to be remarked and also, if a pup is growing rapidly, then the tube needs to be changed for a wider diameter. Jed has the intubation technique absolutely correct, and is obviously a "dab hand" at this. Remember, that if the pup struggles, coughs or you are not sure that you have the tube in right place, just start again. If I am at all doubtful, sometimes I have pinched a toe or tail and if the pup squeeks, the tube is in the right place. If it is a trachael intubation, the pup will cough, sometimes struggle and will not be able to make a sound if the tube is through its vocal chords. The most important thing is that you should only syringe in the milk when you have convinced yourself that you are in the right place. If not, then remove the tube and start again. Placing an EMPTY tube into the pup's trachea will not hurt it, but to try to give the milk WILL, and it is best to try a second time if you cannot decide for sure that you are in the right place. Some pups get so accustomed to tube feeding that they will swallow the tube for you with only a small amount of assistance from you, just like a long piece of spaghetti. I had a pup some years ago that only needed the tube moistened with a little milk and placed into his mouth, and he would promptly proceed to swallow it and then sit and wait for his "milk hit". He was a really strong and vigorous pup and it was so funny to see him frantically looking for the tube to swallow, then just sit there waiting to have his belly filled with no further effort. Once you have learnt the technique, you will wonder why you ever bothered with bottle or dropper feeding, especially if you have a large number of pups to feed or very weak or tiny pups. When you are learning the technique, I cant emphasise enough, how important it is to have someone experienced, proficient and quietly patient at your side to guide you, not because it is difficult or dangerous, but simply because the successful mastering of the tube feeding technique has a great deal to do with confidence. :D :D Give it try!! [ 23-09-2002, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: Wundahoo ]

Aawwwwwhh guys!!! Thanks for that, I'm really glad to know that I'm not boring you all. But I probably wont have quite so much time to post as of tomorrow, 'cos its back to the "salt mines" for me!! I've been on long service leave and my glorious freedom finishes as of tomorrow morning. I might have to resort to being a "lurker" more than a poster, so if you dont hear from me for a while dont be too concerned, I'm just out earning a dollar in order to be able to keep my beloved cockers...there's a few of them!!! I will make a big effort to post now and again, and if there is something that I just cant keep my big mouth shut about....look out!!! I really like this forum, its so very pleasant and sensible. No one mocks or dictates and everyone's opinions are valued, and I am amazed at the knowledge and experience of so many people who post here. It is such interesting reading. I must say that I joined an e-list a little while ago, read their "members only" archives and saw a few of the new posts.......I unsuscribed pretty quickly, not for me at all!!! So, while you are all happily posting away, think of me, shoulder to the grindstone, sweat off my brow, waiting, waiting for just one powerball!! :D :D

Hi Jim, Thanks for the vote of confidence!!! You asked in an earlier post about diaphragmatic hernia. The diaphragm is a sheet of muscle that is attached to the ribs and body wall. It separates the chest from the abdomen and one of its very important functions is in breathing. It is something really important if you are a singer or play a wind instrument or are involved in many forms of sport where breath control is vital. A hernia of the diaphragm is simply a hole that is not supposed to be there. This hole can be congenital, where the animal is born without a fully formed diaphragm, or the condition can occur as a result of disease or injury. It is very common in cats that have been hit by a car. The severity of the symptoms vary. Some animals cope very well with even severe congenital D.H., and others get into big trouble very quickly. Of course the size of the hernia can play a part in this and also whether or not abdominal organs become entrapped in the hole. In trauma-caused D.H. it is not unusual to find liver or spleen entrapped or twisted into the hernia which then reduces the available room for the lungs. This then means that not only does the animal have a problem breathing, but will also have damage and reduced function to the organ that is involved. Hope thiat this answers you question! :D [ 22-09-2002, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: Wundahoo ]

Hi Jim, To supplement a bitch with calcium prior to whelping actually primes her for developing eclampsia. She should simply be fed a well balanced "normal" diet sufficient in calories with no supplementation, and if she is healthy and fit, she will cope perfectly well. Trouble is afoot when people give buckets of Calcium to their bitches after they have been mated and prior to whelping. The mechanism by which pre-whelping calcium supplementation primes for post whelping eclampsia is complex and a bit confusing to say the least, and so I wont go into it.....my posts have a tendancy to get a bit long and boring anyhow!!!! It is sufficient to say that the best results are gained by a normal well balanced diet and then, if really necessary, some moderate supplementation post whelping. My own bitches get NO calcium supplements at any time and I can say that in 30 years of breeding, we have NEVER had a case of milk fever. Our bitches and pups are fed a balanced diet and the bitches milk production is generally very good....something that I carefully monitor as it is a major criterium for the bitch to have a second litter. :D :D

Hi D, I liked the site...very interesting. The neurotransmitter idea is intriguing, but I dont think that what has been described in these posts involves such things as acetylcholine receptors as this sort of problem almost always entails weakness rather than spasm or seizure-like activity. The classic (and probably best known) acetylcholine receptor problem is of course Myasthenia Gravis...the disease that Aristotle Onassis made famous and was the cause of his heavy lidded eyes....and eventually his death. He literally couldnt keep his eyes open as the muscles that raised his eyelids were so weakened by the disease, which progressed to the point that he could no longer breath unaided because of of failing respiratory muscles. Usually, neurotransmitter related problems are exacerbated by physical exercise and again it doesnt seem to fit this picture. But one never knows...and until it is looked at carefully and a significant number of cases are able to be examined we cant really say what we are looking at.....or even whether each person is seeing exactly the same problem. As I have said in an earlier post, there are a number of possible causes for this type of seizure-like occurence in very young pups. It is clear that a few of us have observed the same type of thing, but are these episodes ALL caused by the SAME problem. My puppy was definitely one which had a cardiac vessel anomaly, while Jed's "Whitey" has had that possiblity discounted. I think that it is now clear that such an episode in a very young pup is often a signal of a serious and possibly catastrophic outcome, whatever the cause. Hopefully we can figure out what are the more frequent causes and work out a strategy that might enable a better outcome for such affected pups. I guess that we need to look at all possibilities and hopefully, those breeders who lose pups affected in this fashion could have P.M.'s done by Vets who were specifically looking for a particular set of problems. This might even involve a collaborative effort by us all, to work out a protocol for such a P.M. in order to ensure that each possibility is checked in a systematic and consistant fashion. It's really important that we keep the ideas coming!!! [ 01-09-2002, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: Wundahoo ]

I think that what is being described here could be a form of seizure. Very young pups dont have the "common" clonic-tonic type of seizure, with violent trembling caused by muscles contracting and then releasing. They simply go rigid...... stiff as a board! There are a couple of causes for this. One is hypoglycaemia, or low blood sugar, other possibilities are some form of cardiac malformation, a liver problem or primary brain problem. Hypoglycaemia is probably the easiest to treat, but it must be asked WHY is this happening. It must indicate an underlying serious problem if several young pups in a litter cannot maintain normal blood sugar levels. Many years ago, I had a pup do just what has been described. The pup felt contantly cool. The "stiffness" happened several times that I was aware of and at a few days old the pup suddenly died. :D A post mortem exam was done by a specialist Pathologist and the pup was found to have a weird defect of the major vessels leading from its heart. The defect was called "common ductus" because two of the major arteries were combined into one large vessel and so blood was not being directed where it should. It is not an easy defect to detect on P.M. and is sometimes overlooked by non-specialists, simply because of the tiny size of baby puppy hearts and the unusual and rarely seen nature of the defect. I have sometimes wondered whether this defect is actually a litle more common than previously thought, as it is easy for it to be missed. While the lungs in this particular pup did not have pneumonia, they werent strictly normal due to the perfusion problem from the vessel abnormality, but I presume that if the pup had lived much longer then its lungs would have began to look as though they did have something that would resemble pneumonia at P.M. I hate to sound pessimistic about your chances with these pups, and I think that the most hopeful thing is for them to have hypoglycaemia. It would be worthwhile having a chat to your vet about this option and see if he can give you an idea as to the best way to correct the problem, if that is what they do have. Good luck with them, Jed. Keep us posted please.