Adrienne

Good to know about ACA, I will have a look at it! Just off the top of my head I am thinking there are already regulations in place across many areas and they are simply not being monitored and enforced. I don't think the answers are found in more regulation - certainly not before concerted efforts are made by way of sufficient funding and resourcing of those tasked with that work. Jeeze I'd like to see transparent longitudinal data on what is really going on with dogs and cats in Australia. Some things just don't add up.

Error! Should read "She was clear that veterinary practitioners did NOT generally suffer ill effects of being involved in providing euthanasia services...".

I watched this yesterday - thanks for putting it up, I had no idea it was happening and I will keep an eye out for the next one. I really appreciated the evidence of most of those appearing, in particular Emeritus Professor Jackie Rand and both of the Australian Veterinary Association members. And WOW, Emma Hurst... would not say the word euthanise, had to use the emotive word "kill". Would not use the term "behavioural decline" in relation to dogs being housed in Pound facilities, instead repeatedly using the term "Kennel Rage". Was heartened to hear that no one repeated her terms, choosing instead to use terms like 'behavioural decline" which encompasses a wider range of unwanted behaviours and mental states, such as depression. And I was pleased also that none of the qualified professionals identified 'over supply' of dogs as a problem to be targeted (by legislation). All of them hands down supported targeted measures aimed at assisting dog owners to keep their pets - noting that the housing crises and cost of living pressures and domestic violence were some of the most common reasons owners were surrendering their dogs. Worthwhile listening carefully to the evidence of AVA on emotional burden on Vets involved with euthanising pound dogs. She was very clear that veterinary practitioners did (not) generally suffer ill effects of being involved in providing euthanasia services to pounds when there was involvement from intake, there was context for the action being taken, and when they were not simply called into a facility to euthanise en-masse dogs which they had no prior knowledge of. She makes some very careful distinctions in her evidence and would be good for people to understand these. I was so pleased to hear that at least some shelters/ rescues were dedicating some of their capacity to supporting domestic violence victims and elderly people to keep their pets. To me this type of support is really valuable and prevents sound animals going into the system when they actually have loving owners facing hard times. Reputable Rescues are so important and they should be funded for facilities, consumables and training for their volunteers. RSPCA and Blue Mountains pound facility - what a rort! I am so glad they were questioned about that and will now have to provide further detail after taking a question on notice. Emma Hurst did not want to give more time to Emily Suuval, so funny to watch. State Governments definitely need to seriously invest in better pound facilities and qualified staff and adequate staffing ratios so that animals are not destroyed emotionally by spending time in the system. Animal Welfare League came off as absolutely amazing, sitting beside the behemoth RSPCA, AWL guy seemed to give evidence of staggering achievements and outcomes with their measly $5 million dollar grant compared to what RSPCA has done with their whopping $20.5 million grant. RSPCA defends their swollen coffers by saying it is only responsible to operate with a buffer of three years operational costs in case something happens to put their operations at risk... just can't think of anything that might do that.

Sorry I don't have mine on me, it's in storage. They are called Optivisors, or Glass magnifying headset. They have a little LED light and some come with different lenses. They are not expensive - I think I paid under $30 for mine brand new. I found it online by googling the product and my city. I was able to purchase and pick up from a warehouse. If you needed it posted they are not heavy! A very handy piece of equipment.

I love head lamps! Also, have you ever tried the magnifier head light? It adjusts down over in front of your eyes with two magnifying lens' and a little light. I bought one for trimming puppies nails (they are sooo tiny and sharp and must be trimmed but I was so scared of clipping their little toes). Works a treat and I imagine would be ideal for cutting tiny pills too.

Okay, we are good! Jilly has proved herself to be an AMAZING companion for living 'out and about'. We have been living in a swag out of my car. I decided to stay in my community near my family. Because of the breadth and depth of the housing crisis, I detected a genuine shift in the way people think about homelessness and people who are homeless so I decided to just stay living in my suburb. I have not established a camp, we just roll our swag out in the same spot every night and roll it up early every morning, we spend out days walking around our local area bushland reserves and beautiful parks. As the heat has increased we have to chase the shade and find good micro climates to rest in - very hot days are difficult and I am careful to keep us safe and hydrated. Last month some of our favourite spots became very snake-y and tick-y which has limited us. In the week after Spanner and Ham left I had to leave Jilly at home while I went to an appointment, in the previous two years she had never barked when left (I guess she always had the company of other dogs), but she barked incessantly the whole two hours I was away and from thereafter even when I left her in the car to duck into the shop she barked and barked. I was really concerned about our level of anxiety and my distress at what we were about to step into together - I nearly rehomed her too! BUT, Jilly is excellent and has not missed a beat since we left. So Princess Fru Fru your message of support re the breed was spot on! She stopped barking when left in the car (windows up and aircon on folks, to duck into shop) after a few times. In myself I settled that, in this respect, she would just have to take her lumps, like we all need to from time to time over certain things - my lack of interest in her take on the situation seemed to help. She LOVES the swag. The first night we slept in it she was beside herself with delight, just jumped right in as if to say "WOW! A big soft Kennel - best Sleepover ever". I like the swag too, but Jilly loves it... at the end of every day we go to our sleep spot and usually I will make a cuppa and have a sit (far to early for me to be hopping into bed), but Jilly stands in front of me like a statue eyeballing me intently as if to say "Hey, where's the bed!". So that's how it is, I watch the sun go down with a cuppa and a fag and Jilly does that lovely thing that dogs do snuffling up a nest out the the blankets and making very contented throaty sounds and wagging her tail when I chat to her. She is very alert but not reactive to the situations we encounter. She has always been good on the lead and friendly with other dogs and because she is literally on lead most daylight hours I am discovering a new level of communication and way of being which is much more give and take back and forth between us - It's really striking to me. I might make another post about this aspect because I'd be interested in others experience this too. I took her to my vet last week for a check up and vaccine update. My vet commented on her rear legs when he was feeling her remarking at how solid and muscly they were. She is nearly a kilo heavier than 12 weeks ago and I bet it's all muscle! He was very pleased with her condition. I have also had great updates from the families who bought pups from Jilly's litter and they have grown beautifully and are very loved. Unfortunately, re Spanner & Ham, when you surrender an animal to a rescue you never get an update pic, you never get a desexing certificate, you never really know. I never thought I would ever have to surrender an animal in my life, it was one thing to come to terms with the circumstances which arose making it necessary, it was a whole other thing to realise later that I was now excluded from knowing anything more about them. I cried a lot over Spanner, that little dog just charmed me big time ... I still find water close to my eye when I think of him. As for Ham, I had planned keeping him for stud. It will be years before I am in that position again. That's the update, delivered just now because, lucky me, I am in a house for a week or so and have internet for my laptop! Yay.

It has been a very difficult few weeks and our boys left on Sunday morning. Of course I was very upset with myself and watching Jilly doing all looking out for them and standing at the gate and listening very carefully to neighbourhood dogs barking and spending long periods standing in front of me staring at me as if to say "Come on! Where are our boys? Call them! let's go look for them!" lots of tears and feelings of loss and sadness. Monday to Wednesday was the worst and Thursday my granddaughter came to visit and Jilly was overjoyed to see her and we spent a few hours playing with her and snuggling with her. Today (Friday) I feel we are over the worst of it, last night Jilly crawled in under the covers and I enjoyed the feeling of her up against me. This morning she is more animated and even cheeky which I love and I feel we are going to be fine. I am grateful for the assistance. It was difficult. It was the right thing for the dogs and for me (in my circumstance).

Thanks for the interest. I feel torn about keeping Jilly with me... it might make things harder for me, and put her at risk. I am pretty stressed about it. I am packing my stuff up slowly and having to get very real about what I need and what I have to let go. My granddaughter is very attached to Jilly, and I have just told her I am going on a road trip (how to talk about homelessness to kids is hard without worrying them). I feel really angry that she is going to have to process this also. And I know that she would feel better thinking of me and Jilly together, like I won't be alone. Jilly is the first little dog I have owned, and honestly the sweetest dog I have known, and that's what worries me. I am going to the fringe and I know who and what is there because I have been there before. Any one of my other dogs over my life would be an asset in this situation. Jazz (Cattle cross), Jackie (Tibetan Mastiff x kelpie), and Georgie (kelpie cross). I wish I had Jackie, she was the size of a kelpie and had the heart and mind of the mastiff... she was a pain in the arse to exercise - like, you couldn't take her to a great area and let her have a run. If I stood still or sat down she did too. That in her mind was her job, to remain within 6 feet of me at all times watching, looking, surveying. I travelled around outback NSW with her on my own (with Jazz too) and never felt vulnerable. Once, a male friend who Jackie had never met came to visit my camp and he kept up approaching despite her barking at him, she let him away for three steps and then went in hard at his legs. Hah! "That's a good dog you got." I lost her to melanoma when she was 9years old. Devastating. Once I had to leave Georgie alone for five days. She had my car with a window down and an open bag of kibble and a creek nearby for water. When I got back she was right there, happy healthy and overjoyed to see me. She would have stayed and stayed and stayed I know. She was great with snakes too ... let me know they were there, but never tried to do anything other than watch them and let them pass through. She was an amazing ratter too. I lost Georgie to cancer just two years ago. Heartbreaking. I have no idea how long I will be out this time, these last three years is the longest I have been on private property over the last ten years. I was hoping I would be able to end my cycle of living at the fringe whilst I was here. But no, I can't. And now I have a little dog which might not be the dog for the job. I love her and I wish I could find a way to keep her safe while I try to find a way to get secure housing. No-one in my life is able to accommodate her. My daughter told me that my granddaughter told her, when they were talking about what she wants to do when she's older she said "When I am eighteen I am going to get my own place and get Jilly from Adji and bring her home to me."

Thanks for the support everyone. Westie Rescue has been here and we have arranged for Spanner and Ham to go there in a fortnight. What a lovely lady and I am very grateful for the assistance for these lovely dogs. Maybe one day in the future when I have a secure home I can become involved in assisting with rescue also. Jilly and me will head off in our car in a few weeks time and she can get a taste for life on the move... I will be glad of a little body in my swag at night! Thanks again to all who responded and were willing to assist - it means a lot.

I will be moving into my car in a few weeks (months sooner than I expected) and still have not found a home for Spanner so it looks like a surrender will be in order which just makes me really sad. Please, if anyone knows anyone who is looking for an Aussie Terrier and has a good home to offer he is here and ready to go. I really like this dog very much and would like to know where he goes. I have completely Burnt Out and still have one pup here because I had to withdraw from the activity of selling. The pup is male and 10 weeks old. Lovely pup. He could go together with Spanner - I think Aussies go well in two's - even threes! Pup is chipped, wormed, 1st vaccinations (second Vaccination due next week which I will get done if he is still here. Pup has had good socialisation but has had no outings for last 8 days, he is getting most of what he needs and is getting great learning from his parents but really he needs to go to his new family. I am prepared to surrender them both to a reputable rescue. will post pics soon. Just need to transfer pics from my phone to computer to do so.

So really just another load of crap put out by people sprouting crap ,, On a cold winteres night , a man and wife go to bed and both are cold and the lady says , come closer , put your arm around me . lets keep warm , , Then summer arrives and the man comes closer puts his arm around her and gets told , Bugger off your hot , get over there , guess thats EPIGENETICS Er, NO.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0240787 Link to articles on Epigenetics in Dog breeding

sorry! Didn't see this coneye before I just posted in another topic . That's what happens when one is trying to be on DOL, make coffee, and get all dogs breakfast at the same time.!

Well coneye, have you considered changing your breed preference? ?You could give Spanner a go! An Aussie Terrier is a game little dog in a handy sized body. I could see him on a boat

Search engine history and terms influences results offered up by Google. I have copied this short (book) abstract from Science Direct, unfortunately the links are not active in it, I never copied and pasted a thing from online before, so I don't know. Just briefly, it contains some key words for increasing understanding of what epigenetics is and people could search those terms with the word livestock included which will push them towards results focused on Breeding animals, on which commercial livestock are having the most research done in the area because epigenetics hold very valuable understandings which will increase their productivity. Phenotype in layman's terms is what we can see about an animal - what it looks like, and what behaviour traits it displays. In the Pure-bred dog breeding world it is 100% about phenotype! Sourced from Science Direct. ScienceDirect Handbook of Epigenetics (Second edition) The New Molecular and Medical Genetics 2017, Pages 441-463 Abstract The animal breeding act has developed from visual assessment of desirable traits, use of complex quantitative genetic tools, animal breeding models and reproductive technologies to the genomics era and is potentially moving toward exploitation of the epigenomics phenomena. Current breeding schemes only account for part of the phenotypic variance in traits while the elusive portion could be due to other factors including epigenetics. Numerous lines of evidence have shown that epigenetic marks (DNA methylation, histone modifications, chromatin remodeling, and noncoding RNA regulation) profoundly influence livestock growth and development, and phenotypic outcomes. Thus, phenotypic outcome is a multilevel interaction between the genome, epigenome, environmental factors, as well as other nongenetic factors. This chapter will present an overview of the historical development of the animal breeding art, as well as that of livestock epigenetics. It will present evidence of the epigenetic sources of phenotypic variation in livestock traits, the role of epigenetic marks in production and reproduction, and potential impact on livestock genetics and breeding.

I thought pet shop when I read it, and poor practice having all pups in a p'laypen' unsupervised for 12 hours... how do they manage intake quarantine these places? Maybe they don't take it seriously. This is probably why pet shop pups are so often ill, imagine the imposition on them if they properly quarantined their stock as it came in.

I think this is why I was unaware of the garbage. There is a lot of serious science done and lots of good info available. I have never looked into it re breeding dogs, more just livestock in general and in humans - so mammals really. And while I haven't done in depth research I got the gist of the importance of an animals history and environment as being very impactful on phenotype. I actually came across epigenetics when researching about what breed of horse I should buy as a novice. I ended up getting an unhandled passively trapped Brumby from The Guy Fawkes Heritage Horse Association. I did this because being a novice I needed a horse that was a horse and nothing else - as in being sure of it's history and physical and mental soundness. I did have a quick squiz just now searching relating to dog breeding. Will continue looking, but on the face of it why aren't Kennel Clubs the world over jumping on this and participating because they (the Clubs) are a known pool of Breeders of all the breeds? (They may be and I don't know about it). In particular because epigenetic mechanisms are known to influence susceptibility to diseases such as diabetes etc. And there is a lot of evidence re maternal skills, early socialisation (or rather early isolation) having big hereditary impacts, along with diet etc on temperament and behaviours.

So I went looking for trendy garbage on epigenetics and... well yes, ARGH! Seriously though it is easy to ignore that guff (If you think hard enough you can cure your cancer through epigenetic FFS is there nothing that Kooks won't grab onto .. it seems not). There is no doubt about our environment impacting our genetic expression, that's pretty standard I would think. Genes turning on and off in response to environment happens every season when animals get a winter coat, or shed their coat for summer. Perhaps what is less understood is the potential heritability of epigenetic markers.

Absolutely agree. I just haven't been approached by one ... yet, that is suitable in those ways. And if I met an old codger who would give Spanner a good home I would be over the moon! Well this is exactly what I intend to be doing when I am an oldie and my own dogs have died of old age. I would consider that both a service and a privilege, not a sorrow. It is difficult when our pets die, but they do die and I am okay with that.

And I would consider epigenetics a very good reason for not buying a puppy from a situation where sires and dams are not living an ordinary full and enriched life. I don't think enough is said about the life of breeding animals to puppy buyers and who it really does matter a LOT.

I just started a new topic on epigenetics, this sounds relevent!

I am suggesting this new topic after viewing the muster dog topic. Epigenetics is the study of how the environment impacts the expression of genes within DNA, it can be a reversible turning on/off of gene expression in response to environmental factors, but relevantly to keeping and breeding animals, changes in the expression of genes can potentially be passed on to subsequent generations. So perhaps this has something to do with the look and type and behaviours of an animal which is conceived, whelped and raised in the environment for which it was bred? I try to keep my animals in ways which allow all their behaviours and physical attributes to be fully engaged. For instance, all my pups are outside all day and over night also from 21 days. They have a cosy bed of course, but their little coats and ears and eyes are subject to the air, weather, changing natural light etc. I think it makes a difference to how they grow and behave. Do any other breeders consider epigenetic factors?

I love the Koolie! I have friend past Bourke who turns out the odd litter from her working dogs and they are highly sort after by those in the district and in SA. Hers are almost slight to look at, but WOW, their eye is incredibly and they can and do move move move all day long. It seems to me like all the working dogs breeds you see in the city are getting bigger, does anyone else think that? I remember kelpies being smaller, cattle dogs were shorter and border collies were also smaller.

Thanks! I have been using a kind of a pumice thing from horse land. I will get this and try. The knife which I saw and held and liked was metal and had a kind of pumice type head, it was curved. No teeth. She has had it for years and was still using the same one.

I don’t know what ‘all championed up or something’ means, but with a pretty rare breed I would sometimes find myself with the only breed entry. However, you still get to contest for best in group/class in group/class in-show. I haven’t shown for several years but when I did I often had the only one of breed but still had my dog placed above 40 or 50, or sometimes a lot more, other dogs by winning an age class in show, or a best in group. Even rarely a best in show. That can be a good reality check on your judgement of your own dog, especially if you have a group or breed specialist judging. it’s easy to get kennel blind in a rare breed and that is the value of shows to me, exposing your dogs to the judgement of others is a good discipline if you intend to breed them. Not essential. There are certainly other ways. But a discipline nonetheless. Harsh handling is unforgivable. But I wouldn’t fall too much for the derogatory comments. If they were about their own dogs they may be a bit of game play. I hadn't thought about rare breeds and it makes sense because of course the Breed Standard is what each dog is being judged against in the first instance and so there need not be any other dog of the same breed in the ring. And yes the eye can get used to seeing what it sees every day, I experienced this with my own dogs which are same breed but different types, when I got the second I found myself favouring the first type I had..then for a while my opinion flipped entirely ... and now I seem to favour different things in each dog and I can't stop looking at my puppies trying to tell which one has which things, (a pleasant pastime). When at the show I saw both my dogs ears are too big, which I already knew but seeing other AT's IRL just made it really stand out. I also think one of my dogs is a bit long in the body and seeing the very neat AT's made me that that even more so. And finally I thought out of all the ATs I saw one of my dogs had the best tail! The derogatory comments were all directed at the breeders own dogs. The man handling wasn't rough, no dogs were cowering or vocalising, I just don't like seeing it. I did see one person slap his dog in the snout. Yuck. You see this in the horse world too, people slapping and jerking their animals around. I saw a Standard Poodle crossing the way with his handler, moving with energy and pride, kind of dancing a bit and so on but keeping himself on a loose leash, WOW so beautiful - power and grace. The lady I spoke to was very helpful re the stripping knife, taking the time to show me her collection of tools and giving me the details of the supplier she bought the knife I favoured most from. I am glad of the chat because not only did I find the knife I will buy after holding her in my hand (which is why I would not buy off the internet previously) but I will also feel braver about really pulling all most all of one of my dogs coats out.