Cordelia

The vet students at Camden campus do the desexing for the pound and very rarely are there complications and it has nothing to do with them being students. The surgeries are performed in typical manner with the usual sterile equipment under the direct supervision of an experienced vet surgeon. If they offered our guys free desexing (as they do for the pound)... I would trust them completely to care for my babies during and post surgery. How else are students to learn and be competant surgeons if they are not able to access animals? Desexing is the most routine of ops in any clinic and they need the experience prior to joining those clinics.

One vets opinion that can't be backed up by factual evidence in more than miniscule numbers. Speculation regarding what can happen, doesn't make it a foregone conclusion. There are NOT masses of giant breeds being castrated at 8wks of age. There would be a very small number of giant breeds in the population who have been desexed under 12wks of age but considering very few true giant breed babies end up in Rescue and registered breeders on whole DON'T do early desexing I dare say that your vet is NOT basing his judgement on actual experience or real evidence. If he is...... where is the PROOF?? Comprehension issue. but as yet, there is STILL no conclusive scientific evidence that would lead us to stop this practice...... and the evidence available is biased against desexing generally and if it isn't.... it is speculative and inconclusive that early desexing is SOLEY to blame for whatever issue is being reported on at the time. You should also note that often numbers involved in studies are low therefore gaining formal and conclusive stats are an issue.

And I'd like to add that I never turned this into a Rescue vs Breeder thing. I DON'T have an issue with Registered Breeders at all. Obviously there are good and bad in both rescue and R.Breeders but I honestly believe that there are more ethical and responsible breeders than not. QUOTE(peibe @ 25th Aug 2006 - 09:58 PM) Thanks Piebe... but I also think that MOST registered breeders actually ask more questions of their prospective puppy owners than a number of rescues... from my experience anyway. Of course we get the occasioanal dog back. I've had 4 this year. (out of over 300 rehomed last year I don't think that's too bad). But like Trish said... we take our back. Most breeders I've dealt with won't or can't take them back..... that isn't breeder bashing... it's fact. I do think that registered breeders get bashed here but it isn't anywhere near the same level of someone posting as a BYB...... and whilst I agree that there are SOME rescue folk who take potshots at breeders for culling etc, I'm not one of them. I've been a smart arse regarding some posts and been sarcastic.... but it has little to do with the posters being registered breeders.... more to do with pulling apart certain posts to show that there is logic missing and in particular to discredit the totally anti-desexing site that was posted early on. The thing is, Rescue people and Breeders want pretty much the same for the pups they place into good homes. But as much as you Morgan and others who agree are not believers in early desexing...... in order for rescue to be seen to practice what we preach regarding indescriminate breeding practices..... we have NO choice but to take an educated and calculated risk regarding early desexing. People DO come to us thinking they can get a cheap breeding bitch or cheap stud dog..... especially if we ever get a purebred adult or DD of breeding age into care or a swf pup. We don't have the luxury of NOT taking the risk to early desex. I do however, still take offence at the suggestions that we don't care for our pups as much or that people expect our pups to have issues either as a youngster or later in life just because they are rescues. That is blatantly untrue and incredibly unfair and whether it stems from an elitist attitude or from a total lack of understanding of exactly what we do or refusal to see the fact that whilst we may not have researched pedigrees and waited months for a litter, we take care of our babies every bit as much as a registered breeder does and still take pride in handing over a healthy, well adjusted pup to a family. Just because we can't know the genetic history of the vast majority of our babies doesn't make them any less or more likely to have genetic problems (or any other problems) later in life. We desex early to remove the choice to breed from lovely people who deserve a lovely pup but have no place breeding... regardless of the reason why they want to breed. Some pups WILL develop medical problems due to early desexing..... but as yet, there is STILL no conclusive scientific evidence that would lead us to stop this practice. Yes, there is evidence to show desexed bitches can develop spay incontinence.... but this is at any age, not just from early desexing. As for cruitiate issues in large breeds who are desexed early..... they are large breeds... they are prone to cruciate problems regardless of desexing because of their size. We ALL have stories showing issues or no issues. This isn't a breeder vs rescue debate..... this is animal welfare (NOT animal liberation) vs uneducated owner debate. We choose to remove the choice and guarantee accidents or intended matings don't occur and WE shouldn't be persecuted for that either.

I do actually. Not hard at all in Sydney.

Why thank you ellz!

Well then, it's open for anyone to join in. That includes us criminal rescue folk who like to damage little puppies.

Lovely attitude. Unlike you, those of us involved in rescue do care about the health and welfare of our dogs and pups.... and for the record... the vast majority DON'T have problems and their owners DON'T expect issues in health or temperament..... The difference is that we aren't elitist snobs like you and thank God most breeders I know aren't that way inclined either. Then you should have used your grey matter and put it in the BREEDERS FORUM. She was a nong. If she had SUCH strong concerns regarding early desexing she should have gone to another breeder who didn't desex their pups. Hardly rocket science to figure that out . Even with her reservations and recomendations from her vet she CHOSE to buy the pup anyway. Rubbish. Breeders are NOT being browbeaten into desexing young. It's their choice at this point. And there IS thought for the consequences of early desexing..... they're just different ones. No, but BYB DO target many of the larger breeds.

I agree. There ARE still many vet who won't desex under 14wks of age and that is entirely their choice. But saying early desexing is criminal is way OTT. Maybe not where you live Nadia. Here however, we ARE seeing a dramatic increase in the number of unwanted litters and people not being able to get rid of pups. True. Unfortunately, there isn't ENOUGH of those owners...... otherwise Rescue wouldn't get calls to take pups or have to rescue litters from the pounds on a constant basis. And being a Responsible Rescue means early desexing and removing that choice to breed from people who have no idea but are great owners in every other way.

Yep... we're a pack of crims... ME!! and the vast majority of rescue folk... and the vets we use!! Would he like a list?? I'm sure we could do one up and you can give it to him. He can then contact us and tell us himself just how irresponsible we all are. :p Please make sure that you also ask him to contact ALL of the highly responsible owners out there who don't desex their animals and then bring all those unwanted puppies to US for re-homing. You know... those ones that WE prevent from ending up in the same situations their Dams were in!!

Hypothesis is NOT scientific fact. :p

Unfortunately, I read all of it and it's some of the biggest load of crap I've read in a while. Yep. These types never end up with an unwanted/accidental litter do they. They'd be just like the people who surrendered a purbred litter of Rottweilers to me a few months ago. It happens when people don't desex their PETS! Obviously the author is a genius. Anyone referring to desexing as 'butchering' is proving just how zelous and stupid they are. And this person thinks WE are touting propaganda. What a load of twaddle! If dogs are NO different to us... as the author states.... then we'd share 100% genetic material... NOT 75%! Geez, even with my basic maths skills I can figure that out! :D Common sense would be the realisationof the author that the 25% different genetic makeup means we are really quite different!... y'know.. the whole fur, 4 legs, licking ones own genitals thing.. those differences! Primitive surgery???? Only if done with a sharp stick and dirty hands. :p Author is uneducated in more ways than one. If they want to be taken seriously.... SPELL CHECK MORON!!! More BS. Desexed animals don't NEED as much food.... if people stopped shoving food into their dogs they wouldn't get FAT! ugh! I know plenty of undesexed and obese dogs. so that's not scare-mongering?? What a lunatic It kills lots of undesexed ones too. Makes no difference whether the dog has ovaries or testicles.... it's a GASTIC issue NOT a hormone one! Their identity????? You gotta be kidding!! ;) The only identity crisis my Dane has is that she occasionally believe herself to be a Chihuahua who can fit on a tiny dog bed (whilst looking like an idiot!) Hmmm... so what are all these furry creatures I hang out with all day??? And what the hell has taken over my lounge every night????? ok.. try again..... weird??? Is that a new scientific term??? And that is actually one of the most frightening thing written on that site. Real animal lover that one. Conspiracy theory much?? Whoa! Another conspiracy! Yes, because everything the author has stated on that site is pure science and not fanatical at all. And this final special gem in closing..... Morgan.... Thanks for the best laugh I've had today!! :p

Danes can have up to 10 or more in a litter..... imagine 12 x 20kg 16wk old Dane babies. As gorgeous as that image is....... now Imagine a breeder trying to feed, socialise, train and mange WELL that many juvenile giant pups until 16wks of age . It wouldn't be good for the pups OR the breeder on several levels! Holding til 10wks is a fine idea though for desexing.

How old is this Akita pup now??? No I'm not. Certain people like to make out that early desexing has disasterous results for the entire species and frighten others into thinking they made the wrong choice for their pet or that those who agree with it don't care for their pets. Sorry, but I take offence at the accusation that this Akita breeder and others who advocate early desexing don't care for our animals. A very small percentage. My Gen (giant breed) has an inverted vulva (not so bad nowadays) and was desexed early. She occasionally gets vaginitis (about once a year) that is easily treated and causes her mild discomfort for a day. Tell the friends to stop looking at her vagina. Simple. IF it is as bad as you say.... why has the vet not mentioned a resection of the skin around her vulva??

What crap! They OBVIOUSLY care about their bitches being exploited by BYB etc. Most 'normal' people don't spend much time looking at their dogs genitalia. Who cares if pet Dane has a small doodle :D Not like he's going to be using for anything other than piddling! Is he going to go out and buy a Porshe due to penis envy???

We use DRONTAL and worm all dogs on arrival and continue worming everyone on the first of the month. Cheaper worming brands have been proven to have a low efficacy on anything other than roundworm. We went with a cheaper product a while ago and ended up losing most of a litter to hookworm... they had been wormed repeated from new borns....

Hi there, Glad to hear your boy is a little better today. Danes (in general) become very stressed when they are left without their owners.... stress reduces immunity to disease, not to mention that KC vaccines are useless at the best of times. When you get him back home, please don't allow him just to lay around. Force him to get up and move about even if it is only for 5 minutes at a time. Being a deep chested breed, you've seen how quickly a usually mild infection can develop into life-threatening pneumonia. In case your vet hasn't told you about it.... do chest percussion on him at least 4 times per day on both sides. Using your palms (cupped) tap him (quite hard... but obviously not painfully so) on the brisket area (chest just above his elbow) for 2 mins to help shift the gunk in there. It will make him cough a bit but it's a good way to help him clear some of the congestion in his lungs. Hope he makes a quick recovery.

Wrong time of year! They should go and visit some NSW pounds and explain that to the pups who have died and the staff who have to deal with it! ..... Parvo can be tracked in on any surface (including car tyres if you drive over an infected poo). The big issue is that the vet in question has told one person that you know of..... that means that he has no doubt told numerous others as well. God Help us when some vets are so supremely stupid. I guess it does his business good when there's a mass outbreak of parvo in his area due to his shoddy information. The person who was told that info should report him to the AVA....... or possibly make a call to one of the vaccine companies and they can pop in with some info for the uneducated/ignorant vet. Needs a slap.

Can we at least know the suburb and state this vet is in please?? People should avoid him like the plague (or like parvo). What a bloody irresponsible git!!

Why aren't the rescue group you adopted her (undesexed and pregnant) from helping you with rehoming the pups?? Pretty poor form to leave you with something THEY should have taken responsibility for (that being keeping her in care to have the litter or DESEXING mum PRIOR to her being placed in a home)!!! Regardless, I don't think it's fair to send a pup with neuro problems into a home unless you have a diagnosis or at the very least, a better idea of what her needs are going to be as she grows up. I tend to agree with Hazz... and the fact that even though the pup has some problems, a 'normal' pup will be just as time consuming and need as much supervision and work (if not more). If you want to consider it.... I am willing to take on the pup with neuro issues if she can get to Sydney (when a bit older). Does she have seizures, difficulty eating etc or she just walks 'funny'??

Nope, Pepper is not alone at all. My Shelby would have been there to bark hysterically at her (since Shelby believed if she was deaf... so was everyone else!) and help guide her to her special place. I am so sorry for your loss but know that you never lose the love of a Sheltie.... it's just quieter (which I discovered is a good and bad thing ). My thoughts are with you at this sad time.

As others have said.... yoghurt. I'd also recommend getting her off the dry food and just feed natural fresh foods. The beef could be too rich for her too. Lots of my pups don't tolerate beef in their diet.... hence why I feed chook mince and ocasionally lamb mince. Worm her again too. Can't hurt.

Now now Kitkat..... you're just trying to disprove and discredit the Iams issues. Shame on you!! :rolleyes:

Thanks guys. (I haven't been game to come back in here since I posted). I reckon she is too. :cool: Thing is... I still hear her barking occasioanlly (and noone here sounds anything like her!) I sort of wish it wouldn't happen, but it is comforting in a way too. I just miss her. :p

they have to match mine so they are still pink atm. :D Colour chanhe occurs when I get mine infilled in a week or so...... likely to be blue or purple :D

Hope she picks up very soon Rozzie. Healing thoughts being sent and hope a diagnosis can be given (so frustrating not knowing).