Staranais

And there's a super little book (booklet, actually) called "Following Ghosts - Developing the Tracking Relationship" by Suzanne Clothier from the USA. She has her own website, but you can get it from Dogwise in the US: http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=dgt200 or Amazon.com Oh, what does it cover & what method does she recommend? Could you do us a quick summary/review? I just invested in a copy of "Tracking dog, theory and methods" by Glen Johnson from Amazon - probably not what my student loan was intended for, but it was just too tempting...

I agree with all of this. As for what lifestyle adjustments you need to make for competition or work, I agree that it all depends on what level you want to reach. I also think that it depends on what type of dog you have. For example, I was told by one trainer to crate my dog and deprive her of all toys when I'm not working her since that's how working dogs "should" be kept. However for my dog that is (IMO) completely inappropriate advice as she's so high drive already, I'm concerned she'd end up developing behavioural issues or mutilating herself from lack of stimulation. But for a low drive dog that someone was trying to get more drive out of, perhaps that would be an appropriate thing to try. So it's about the dog, and about what you want to do with them. I am also careful not to devalue commands. Some commands always get a drive reward. And some commands always get a release command.

I don't see why s/he would be kicked off? She wasn't particularly polite, but I don't think she actually broke any rules?

With the 'method' for the "food refusal" component of training, where the instructor slaps the dog on the face/muzzle if it reaches for the food that is offered, how do you ensure that the dog is pairing that punishment with the fact that it reached for the food, and not pairing it with the fact that a 'stranger' approached it? Ms Faye - is this not a 'method' used at the Club in question? If it is, I'm still puzzled at the reasoning behind the creation of the 'method'. Do you agree with it? Still no response to the above by either Ms Faye or Tazmadman? By accusing the OP of being a liar, are you saying that the above description of training for food refusal did not and does not happen? Are you saying that the GSD who failed to recall, who was known to fail its recalls but still permitted off lead (apparently - feel free to correct this point as well), was not reprimanded in any way after its return? Are you saying the OP lied about that? It's kind of hard to make out what's going on, since the OP has been very professional and not mentioned the name of the club she attends on the forum. But as far as I can make out, the OP has said that the GSD was manhandled for running away at the club Tazmadman attends, and the food refusal happened at another club entirely. So Tazmadman probably doesn't have anything to do with the food refusal thing. I think that's what's going on, anyway. :D

Me too. If I were in the area I too would be prompted to investigate further so I could avoid attending that club, not because of the OP's story, but simply because of the attitude shown by the trainers who have posted so far.

Me too - there are very, very few people I allow to handle my dog, let alone train her. Quite apart from the fact that I don't particularly like my dog accepting food or toys from strangers, I simply don't expect her to listen to or obey strangers. Why should she listen to someone she doesn't know? And I certainly wouldn't expect her to accept being disciplined or corrected by a stranger! Now, getting cuddles from strangers, she's pretty good at that.

IMO it is your job to protect your dog from this type of thing. You can't expect to have any type of good, trusting relationship with your dog if the dog can't rely on you 100% to protect them from being attacked by other people and other dogs. Sticking up for your dog is IMO part of being a good leader to your dog. Anyone who tried this with my girl would be copping an earful from me - and I'd be cheering her on if she nailed them for it first. Stick up for your dog, and find a different school!

My basic definition is exactly as the term states. Drive for prey. Not chasing, not pouncing, not stalking, not tugging, but for actual prey animals. Live prey animals. How they might go for the prey is variable, but not the soaring arousal levels at the very sight or smell of a prey animal. Dogs that instinctively know a prey animal when they see one. A dead animal is not prey; it's carrion. Food all the same, but completely different response. Then I guess it's impossible to train anything except a hunting dog in prey drive? Perhaps that's why people run into difficulty discussing prey drive with you, Corvus - because you appear to be using a very different, much more restrictive definition of "prey drive" than anyone else on the forum?

Congratulations!

Ahh another person that doesnt use the stay command.So much simpler to tell a dog to sit and well thats what he does..WHy confuse the issue with sit, sit stay, sit wait etc etc etc.... if a dog sits,drops or stands he shouldnt do anything else untill hes told too. I can see the argument for using a "stay" command for down stays, to give the dog a heads up that they might as well settle down, cos they're going to be there a while. As opposed to a simple "down", where I might want them to remain alert because I'll expect them to jump up again in a minute. I figure my dog's on my team, why not give her all the information I can? I too would like an explanation of the steady feet game, I haven't heard of it before.

Well, it's hard to say - since really, the only opinions that matter would be the dogs' opinions, and it's kind of hard to ask them if they think they're in a pack or not. I can understand that it's hard to view such a temporary relationship as a "pack". But on the other hand I do know some trainers who can work a dog in pack drive within moments of meeting them. So I suppose it's not impossible that the dogs could view themselves as a pack, even though they'd just met. But whether or not it's a pack, I do think they've formed a social group. So perhaps I should talk about "social group" drive instead of pack drive! The desire to be part of a social group. I guess on the whole though I'm inclined to agree with Quickasyoucan. I think play is a pack drive thing, with elements of prey drive included (chasing and running). But it's really interesting to hear other people's thoughts.

Hmmm, I don't know about that - perhaps dogs differ, but I don't think my girl would be interested in playing with a dog she had no relationship at all with. Whenever she meets another dog, the first few seconds (or minutes) are spent meeting each other and assessing relative rank. Play only happens after that. She doesn't just see another dog, and launch straight into play mode. There is always some establishment of relationship and hierachy first, even if the dogs aren't in a permanent relationship. I don't have the answers, just the questions! But to move on, what rewards would you include as "pack" rewards then, if (non-toy) play isn't one of them? Just praise, and petting?

So, you're thinking that play is just a milder form of prey drive? I was kind of thinking the opposite, that when we play she's really just getting quite worked up in pack drive. But like you say, perhaps there's a lot of overlap. Perhaps playing is a mixture of pack and prey drive. Or perhaps play really is its own drive? I don't know. My girl definitely sees a difference between play and prey - she loves playing with me, but if I give the drive cue while we're playing, her behaviour changes immediately and she gets that much more serious, focused, intense "prey drive look" as she waits for me to produce the tug.

OK, here's a somewhat relevant question that I've been pondering for a few days. I've heard lots of trainers talke about "play drive" as if it's a separate drive. What is "play drive"? Is it just another synonym for prey drive, or is it closer to pack drive? Around the house, my girl has recently started to work basic obedience happily and attentively for just play - no prey object, just me cheering her and roughing her up or chasing her round for a few steps as a reward after releasing her. I've started not to offer food for non-prey-drive training sessions, and just use praise/play instead, since it seems much more effective (and I always have it on me!) This isn't prey drive, since there's no prey object for her to bite. Is rewarding this way simply using her pack drive? Or is it "play drive"?

Then I guess my girl isn't a very prey driven dog. Unfortunately, I have the bruises and bite marks to prove otherwise! My girl has heaps of prey drive for anything that moves. Movement is the drive trigger. The first time she saw a cat she was very interested by it and was keen to investigate it, but didn't go into prey drive, since the cat didn't run away. That changed the second she met a cat that ran away - and after that she would go into drive when she saw the stationary cat, since she had learned that the cat was a drive object and it would move. She didn't magically know that the cat was a prey item the first time she saw it, she had to learn by watching it run. Just like she had to learn to go into drive on a cue, and learn to go into drive upon seeing a tug - she didn't come to me doing those things, she first had to make the association between the cue or tug and the ensuing game. What triggers a dog into drive depends on learning, IMO, as much as genetics.

Staranais - tell us more about your puppy. Hold old, where is it from and what are your plans for the future? 10 months old, her breeder is Vanrusselhof, we'll be doing SAR if we make the grade, competitive tracking and possibly some schutzhund if we don't. ;) ETA, thanks Amypie!

I have started coaxing him in with food which is slowly working but as soon as I say he can go he bolts out of there. Poor thing is shaking the whole time. I am a little worried that doing this might reward the fearful behaviour though, not sure about that one. I just don't understand what may have happened I'm not a trainer, but if it were my dog I wouldn't worry about that - if he's too scared, he won't eat anyway, plus in my observation eating often relaxes a dog. If you did end up with a dog who "acts scared" in order to be fed, that's a far easier problem to fix than a dog who actually is feeling terrified. But if he's genuinely scared, then how to manipulate you to get more food will be the last thing on his mind. If it were my dog, I'd take Corvus's advice - feed the dog at a distance where he's a little nervous but not terrified. Then gradually decrease the distance as he starts to feel more and more comfortable. That's JMO, though.

Our official youtube channel is RachelandFledge: http://www.youtube.com/user/RachelandFledge. There's not much on there at the moment, just some extremely cute baby malinois footage from a few months ago. I also have a secret channel where K9Force gets to view my training in drive bloopers. But I'm not publishing it here! Anyone interested in watching me fall on my arse and get bitten by my dog can PM me for the name.

Perhaps he's moving to NZ...

Why do you want him doing it not on command? I think having a command for playing tug is a great idea. I don't see how you'd use tug in training without one. We use two specific cues for tug work - one to tell my girl that she has an opportunity to earn the reward by obeying me, and the other to tell her she's now actually allowed to bite the tug. Without those means of communication I'm pretty sure she would just be screaming in frustration and biting me the entire session, waiting for the chance to grab the tug, not focusing on what I was asking her to do!

Oh, I was hoping there was some footage of you making your kids do recalls or sit stays or something. ;) Well done to them!

I haven't heard that GSD have a superior ability to the malinois in air scent, or noticed any difference. Where did you hear that GSD are better, and what is supposed to be the cause of the difference? The most popular landSAR dogs round here are actually border collies and labradors, which have the prey drive to do the work, but are thought to be easier for novice handlers to train and control. I don't know if I'd pick a GSD for USAR work either, most USAR handlers I have met prefer a smaller and more agile dog that can work on the rubble piles efficiently. I too would not recommend a malinois for a novice dog owner, especially not a working line mally. They can be pretty intense. Mine definitely keeps me on my toes.

A Terv won the 26" USDAA Grand Prix Steeplechase final this year...She was the only non-BC in the class & she beat them all. Here is the link: Great video ........I am thinking there is more Mal in that dog than Turv though Looks like a Terv to me? Traditionally, I believe, you could get "mals" and "tervs" in the same litter - they were just named according to coat type, and not regarded as seperate varieties. Some of the show line mals you see are pretty fluffy too.

What, noone? Perhaps I'll put up a youtube clip of it when we're done.

We're working on this at the moment, using a backpack to help her balance up there. Firstly getting her to stand balanced on a full backpack. Then getting her to do this while I'm wearing the backpack. Next working on having her stay up there for longer and longer periods, while I stand up and walk around. Working on this both for fun, and for practical reasons (having carried my old dog out of the bush once in my arms after he got heat stroke, I don't want to ever have to do that again! It was extremely hard work.) Has anyone else taught variations of this piggyback trick? It's probably far easier with a smaller dog (my girl's about 25kg).