Staranais

Perhaps the kennel meant that she should ask breeders where they board their dogs, rather than asking to board their dog with a breeder?

Oh he was fine, he was a tough boy, he bounced back pretty quick. Yeah, he was always a pretty happy camper. Short story is that using a combo of methods (mostly prey drive rewards & corrections) I finally ended up with enough control that we were able to start competing in obedience, until the end of his life he still secretly wanted to eat most dogs & other animals that he came across, he just learned it was more fun to work with me instead. Have his ribbons hanging here above the computer as I type - still miss him! My current girl would probably be a lot less forgiving of me randomly squirting her in the face (interesting, she's also a lot more likely to actually have designs on taking over the world, or at least our small part of it).

It's just another type of correction collar, Ellie's Mum. It works like a limited slip collar (martingale), except that there are blunt prongs on the inside to squeeze the dog's neck skin when the collar contracts. So it gives a stronger correction than a martingale. Lots of people think they're safer than a choke chain, since they can only close so far and no further, hence no chance of damaging the dog's throat or neck by a too-enthusiastic or accidental correction.

Me too. I guess they're designed so that people can't tell you're using a prong? They're still not terribly attractive, though.

I too have seen and heard some rather silly things done in the name of dominance. As an example, years and years ago, when I had recently adopted my previous dog, I had one trainer come to my house, and diagnose him as "dominant". She refused to look at my dog through half way through the consultation to establish her "dominance" over him. When he grunted, that was called "dominance". When he watched me, that was "dominance". When he sat by my feet during the consult, that was "dominance". I was also to squirt him in the face whenever he tried to initiate any form of interaction with me, since only "dominant" dogs initiate interaction (good way to spoil a nice relationship, huh? I don't think I'd like it if my family members started squirting me with water whenever I politely ambled up to say hi). This was the least dominant dog in the world, by the way. He was extremely soft and in no way interested in increasing his rank over me. I strongly suspect that every problem dog this woman saw was automatically labelled "dominant", no matter the circumstances. On the other hand, pretending that some, perhaps most, dogs don't understand or value status, or pretending that some dogs don't try to increase their social rank by subtle or aggressive means is, IMO, equally silly. Perhaps we need to reclaim the term dominance!

Ok playing devils advocate,by adding kelp in whatever amount ,how can you be sure you are not throwing their thyroid totally out of whack? that why i buy vets all natural its all premixed to a vets specification. i didnt say make up my own amounts. I have always been of the belief that the thyroid is something you don't mess with and really how many wild dogs eat seaweed? Surely they get enough iodine from organs... I'll answer this, cos I feed a pinch of kelp occasionally too. Why do I feed it? Because many stock animals in this country are marginally deficient in iodine themselves. Subclinical iodine deficiency is very common in sheep and cattle in many areas of this country. Hence, there is a good chance that I'm feeding my dog meat that is marginally low in iodine. Will that have any effect on the health of my dog? Probably not, but who knows. I'd rather be safe than sorry. Hence, I add a pinch of kelp to her meal now and again. Is feeding iodine dangerous? Depends how much you feed. It can cause thyroid disease if you feed way too much. A pinch now and then added to a raw diet shouldn't cause any issues, even if the meat is naturally quite high in iodine already. Adding teaspoons to every meal is something I'd avoid. The maximum RDA of iodine is actually very high for dogs, but like anything, too much of a good thing can harm. Like everything else, it's about knowing your area & your local foods. If you live in an area where the soil, and hence the grass and stock, are all rich in iodine, there's probably no need at all to feed an additional source of iodine. It's also about how complicated you're willing to get in trying to construct the "perfect" diet for your dog. Is adding iodine to a raw diet necessary? Probably not. Is it a good idea? Could be, depending on where you get your meat from.

Henk fit for show (37 kilos - 81.5 lbs) Henk fit for field trial (28 kilos - 61.7 lbs) WOOOAAHHH That's a whole debate that you don't even want to start on this forum. I am sure you can find some shitfights if you do a search on Show Vs Working dogs. It applies in many breeds - either different condition of the same dog or a different build of dog in the same breed used for working Vs showing. Border Collies, Kelpies, GSDs to name a few. Not looking for a debate -- I have no clue re show v working dogs in terms of types. Just saying my own personal preference is for the look of the leaner labbie. From that photo, the "show" lab looks like he's verging on obese to me. I hope that's not really the required look for the show ring?

I still have those moments sometimes, but unfortunately she just won't fit back in the damn airline crate anymore! Seriously though, I agree that it's far better they send the pup back now than later, if he really is more trouble than they expected. If they really do want a dog but can't cope with a puppy, then perhaps they'd be better off giving a home to a calm elderly rescue dog or something.

Dogs can be allergic to just about anything. And dogs that are allergic to one thing are far more likely to be allergic to other things as well. It doesn't sound like a dietary, or flea, allergy from the timing you've described. Sounds like she possibly reacted to the vaccine, and also possibly to something in the yard. Could be a severe wandering dew reaction, but with that you typically see bumps on the less furred parts of the dog (e.g, the belly, armpits, etc), not on the face. Still, I'd have a look at your yard and make sure there is no wandering dew around. I'd be cautious about vaccinating her more than necessary, given she has already had a possible vaccine reaction. Finish her puppy set if you haven't already done so, titre her a month or two after that to make sure they've taken, then think seriously about giving any more to her unless absolutely necessary. JMO. A consultation with a specialist canine dermatologist might be something to think about as well.

Do check out your yard for wandering dew if you haven't done so, also check out where you take him for walks. Most dogs will react to it with little red lumps and bumps, especially on their bellies and other less furry parts. It's not an actual allergy, the plant itself is an irritant. Could be a staph infection, but that usually requires a predisposing cause, e.g. it doesn't just happen to a perfectly healthy dog. Like Erny says, I wouldn't go over-shampooing him, that can in itself hurt the skin & predispose to infection. If you do suspect an infection then rather than giving systemic Ab you could pick up some chlorhexidine wash from the vet (should be cheap as chips) and wash him with that every few days.

I'm not sure if I'd like to eat raw broccoli either (assuming it's raw)? I'm not sure if it's too flash for dogs, either. I know that broccoli contains a toxin that can cause GIT upsets in many animals, ruminants particularly. Haven't heard of any issues in dogs, but I also wouldn't go overboard with feeding it, personally. Especially not to a pup who is showing signs of GIT issues already. Why not feed the bones, the meat, and the vege mix separately, at different meals, and see which of them is causing the issues? I'd also suggest you add a little bit of liver in there with your meat mix, otherwise I'm not sure if you will be feeding sufficient copper and vit A.

His books mostly collate peer reviewed sources, kind of like a giant literature review.

If you mainly want cute tricks, you can start to do clicker training all by yourself (there are heaps of resources on the internet), and it can easily fit it into your day in several short sessions. I'm a fairly busy student (yes, there is such a thing!), and I find that clicker training trick sessions fit wonderfully into 10 minute study breaks.

72 hours is very impressive stuff! On those very old trails, where are your dogs finding most scent (or does it depend on the terrain and weather conditions etc)? Yes, my girl trails with her head mostly down, she will lift her head to take a breath regularly, but sounds like she has it down far more often than your guys do. We don't generally train highway crossings or hard surface urban tracking (or at least we don't need to for certification), we focus on training for local conditions and as we're usually deployed on farmland/wilderness areas that's what we're trained for. The certification trails are around 3 hours old only & a few km long, but teams are expected to keep training to higher levels of proficiency after they are certified, certification is just the level you need to prove you are at before anyone is allowed to use you on any real life search.

I have a dog I'm working with at the moment and he has NEVER had any food or toy reward for his work. He is ready for CCD and will be soon ready for CD, as well as Novice Rally. He works for praise and a pat and is focused. I could if I wanted to, teach him 'pet tricks' I choose not to, however my other half uses only praise to teach the German Pinscher pet tricks. No collar, no food, no toys....just 'good girl' and a head pat....in a very short time, she's learned a variety of tricks and will perform them without fail upon command. One trick in particular took about 45 minutes to sort out. (High Five with whatever foot he asks for based on his hand position) I missed this, and just wanted to say that my girl also does many tricks simply for excited praise too. Her favourite trick is probably balancing on things with all four legs, we're gradually working on making the things smaller and smaller. She will also down happily on request, sit, go find my keys, etc. She doesn't get food for these things, just a marker word and her owner jumping about and praising her excitedly and basically acting like a clown. I could probably teach her to balance on her hind legs with just excited praise, if I had the inclination and time to do so. It's not at all that I'm a particularly great trainer - my old dog certainly wouldn't have focused for very long on learning tricks if there was no chance of earning food or something to bite. It's more to do with her personality, and that she finds an excited owner reinforcing. But my girl still works best where a prey item is involved, so we use that for actual work.

Oh no, we don't do formal FST either - we like to find lost people before they die of hypothermia. I have been told to try to get my trainee girl to follow reasonably close to the line of footsteps though, instead of fringing the scent cloud as she prefers to do. The theory behind that is that as we age the track still further, the trainers figure it will mostly be crushed vegetation scent and not skin raft scent left behind, so teaching her to scent mainly the disturbed vegetation from the start is setting her up for future success when we're working tracks that are many hours old. I'm interested in your experiences working very old trails, since it sounds like your guys are still able to follow skin raft/body scent many hours after the track is laid, and often follow this in preference to crushed vegetation scent? That conflicts with what our trainers tell us, that it will mostly be disturbed vegetation scent left behind after several hours (especially in hot dry conditions/sparse vegetation etc). We don't get obedience officially assessed, but are expected to be able to control the dog to a reasonable level. Much easier with a herding breed than a hound, I'm sure! One handler told me that her philosophy is, when the dog isn't in scent, the handler is the boss of the team. When the dog is in scent, the dog is the boss of the team. She reckoned that the dogs could understand that OK.

You have just confirmed that a "few" SAR dogs are rewarded with food obviously not all which is the point. Yes, the rest are trained with toys. None are trained with praise/correction alone. I start my trailing dogs off with food,and every now and again i 'Jackpot them" to keep them motivated.None of mine have been play driven except for the one in Sydney with another trainer,and his reward is his tennis ball. When they associate the "victim" with the food/praise reward,i start to use more basic food rewards like dried liver etc,and at the end when they are back at the car-they get their ultimate-a chicken frame,roo tail etc,bu ti still jackpot them occaisionally to keep them motivated. I want my dogs to be motivated,enthusiastic and food seems to do that-you cant have a half arsed search dog. Most of our trailing dogs are started with food on the track & a bite or tug at the end, then for most dogs the food is ultimately faded until it's just random drops (or gone altogether). They toy reward always remains, however. This is how the police dog trainers who train with us also start their dogs trailing. Ultimately, it's just like a hunt, the dogs are working in prey drive, the only difference is that they get to bite a toy or sleeve instead of a live animal at the end of the trail. We don't have any blood hounds though, mostly border collies and german shepherds, so I wonder if our dogs are just naturally more play/prey driven than yours? No point using a toy reward if the dog just isn't into it. Our airscent dogs are almost all rewarded with a toy upon finding the victim, but I did hide for one a few years ago who worked exclusively for food (yes, it was a Labrador!)

You have just confirmed that a "few" SAR dogs are rewarded with food obviously not all which is the point. Yes, the rest are trained with toys. None are trained with praise/correction alone. William Koehler's were................how did he manage that??? You're joking, right? Koehler was training dogs well before the advent of modern SAR theory, e.g. by the Syrotucks in the 70s. To my knowledge, and please correct me if I'm wrong, he didn't train any dogs in SAR airscent at all. And his tracking method, "force tracking" based on the force retrieve, is out of favour for several very pertinent reasons. I would think you would find it difficult to find any modern search trailing/tracking team using Koehler tracking methods. Why? Because reward based methods generally work better in producing enthusiastic, focused scenting dogs. We want to train really good search dogs. Not ones that do an average job. Again, I'll be genuinely interested to see your trialling videos of a dog trained using no food and no toys, if you're intending to trial, and see how they compare to teams who have used toy and food motivation.

You have just confirmed that a "few" SAR dogs are rewarded with food obviously not all which is the point. Yes, the rest are trained with toys. None are trained with praise/correction alone.

I don't think this method is designed to show the dog who is "boss". I think it's designed to show the dog that paying attention to the owner is the best route to obtaining access to rewards,with the aim of creating a dog who looks to the owner for guidance when it encounters potential rewards. This is a different belief system to most dogs - most dogs believe that disobeying the owner whenever possible is generally the best way to gain access to rewards. I didn't design the method, however, so could be wrong as to what it's all about. Why would anyone flame you? I don't think there's been any flaming in the thread so far.

My girl does "round the house" obedience such as drops, stays, off leash walking, etc, for just praise/correction. I refuse to shovel treats into her for easy, routine requests. It's just not necessary. But I can't imagine training her for her SAR work with no extrinsic rewards. I have never seen, or heard, of a SAR dog working for praise alone. All our dogs get a huge play and praise reward when they find the victim or end of the trail (except for the few dogs who prefer, and get given, food and praise instead). We reward because we want them working extremely enthusiastically for long periods of time. It's not sufficient to have a dog working half heartedly, going through the search routine just because the handler says so. We want dogs who live to work, and that requires huge rewards. It's the same with all the schutzhund dogs I've seen - all good schutzhund dogs I've seen work in either prey or food drive in the obedience phase (and food drive in the tracking phase). They do not work just to avoid correction, or gain praise. I will be very interested to see a video of your schutzhund dog trained using praise/correction alone, with no toys or food, Longcoat, if you would care to post a video of the trials you compete in? It will be interesting to see if you can gain results, and scores, comparable to those teams using food and toy motivators.

The Belgians do well I love this dog This dog trains French Ring as well He is a cutie! I wish we had ringsports over here. Schutzhund is fun to watch, but ring seems so much more realistic and varied.

I'm not sure if I 100% buy that. In my experience, it's often the farmers and farm workers who object to new legislation promoting animal welfare, and the "ignorant townies" who are pushing such legislation through. Remember that it's chicken farmers who invented battery egg cages, and pork farmers who invented sow crates, and it's members of the ("townie" "greenie") public who are now campaigning for these things to be made illegal. Legislation compelling the use of pain control for castration in calves, improved pain control for antler velveting in deers, and banning farmers from inducing the birth of premature dairy calves, has also been opposed by farming lobbies in NZ who claim that the soft townies and vets just don't understand that these are just animals. Let me say now that I know that some farmers are great to their stock, and I have personally worked with some ethical, wonderful farmers, people who I would now count as friends. But in my time working on dairy and sheep/beef farms, I've also seen some really nasty things. I have worked with milkers who would break cows tails when they were "naughty", while the boss turned a blind eye. I have worked for a farmer who left a cow in a ditch with a broken leg for 2 days before going out to shoot her (he only bothered to go out after my vet student friend threatened to call the vet herself if he didn't). Another vet student friend of mine was there to help clean up the aftermath of a farmer breaking a cow's pelvis in two places while attempting to pull an overly large calf out of her with a tractor (the vet quote for a caesarian was apparently too expensive). These people weren't detached from their stock. They were just blind to the suffering. Familiarity sometimes breeds contempt. I stress again that some farmers are great to their stock, and most are OK to them. But members of any industry are often reluctant to enforce any code of conduct that eats into their own profit margin, or requires them to battle more red tape. I'm not sure the farming industry would do a great job of policing themselves without input from "soft" townies. Townies might not know much about the practicalities of farming, but they do look at the industry through a fresh set of eyes and ask questions that some farmers might avoid asking themselves. That's my 2 cents, anyway.

How do the belgians do? I think my girl probably has a great body type for agility - tall and skinny and loves to jump - as well as plenty of smarts and drive, but have never seriously trained agility so have no idea whether belgians tend to do well at the top levels?

That's true, but like humans, it also holds true that oldies must "use it or lose it"! I'd say warm her up well, warm her down well, keep a very good eye on her, and otherwise let her run. She clearly enjoys it, and if you're careful then (IMO) it will help keep her young. Fish oil and other joint support in her diet could be an idea too, if you're not already doing that. If she really is nutty on the course, to the extent you think she will injure herself through sheer craziness, then could you tug with her or exercise her first to just take that edge off before running her on the equipment? Like Lablover, I too have little faith in canine chiros. Perhaps some are good, or perhaps they're all good for certain conditions, but the one I consulted for my old boy many years ago basically just gave him a lovely back massage to "adjust" him, and completely failed to pick up the conformation defect that was actually causing the lameness. Mind you, two GP vets also failed to notice it, so perhaps I can't be too hard on the chiro.