Staranais

Well... I don't disagree, but a lot of people never stop using a tool and I don't see why they should, particularly. I mean, a leash and flat collar are tools. My mother walks two of her three dogs on head collars. At one point she tried the older one without the head collar and she started pulling again in a couple of days, unsurprisingly. She is quite happy to just keep them on the head collars indefinitely. They are habituated to them and don't try to paw them off. In fact, they associate them with walkies and will happily shove their heads into them impatiently if you pick them up. So from her perspective, there's no reason to wean them off. They are just pet dogs and are not ever going to be in competition. The tools are not impacting at all on the health or welfare of the dogs and enable pleasant, loose leash walking. I would be reticent to resort to a similar tool in the first place and would definitely aim to wean them off, but that's me and my priorities. I don't know, don't you think everyone would prefer to have a dog that was reliable off leash? I've always assumed everyone would like that, it's just that they don't know how to do it, or aren't willing to put in the time. Maybe I'm projecting. I just like having a naked & off leash dog whenever I can, but perhaps that's just me!

I don't know though Aidan, I think some things are MORE salient to the dog. As in, I think some collars/tools are more obvious to the dog, so are more likely to be associated with the new "rules" for walking. Some tools are more effective at stopping pulling so they write the new rules for walking - and become associated with them. Yes, it makes sense to me that a more effective tool for discouraging pulling will become associated with "not pulling" faster than a tool which doesn't do much. I think most trainers & owners would prefer to use a tool and a method that worked quickly, so we do need to be careful that the dog doesn't think the new rules apply only when the new tool is used. I still do think that a dog will associate a more obvious/novel tool with a new sensation faster than a less noticeable/less novel tool. I have no long words to back that up, just my observations. Hey, I only know big medical words. I get confused by big training words! I guess it's like using an e-collar, and not letting your dog get collar smart. I'd rather have a dog that thought her own behaviour was the only factor causing (or magically turning off) the collar stim. Not a dog that associates the stim with the collar on her neck! But to make sure that occurs, you need to be a little bit careful about how you introduce the collar to the dog, since I think it's rather easy for them to associate a "new" collar with a "new" sensation.

I don't know though Aidan, I think some things are MORE salient to the dog. As in, I think some collars/tools are more obvious to the dog, so are more likely to be associated with the new "rules" for walking. Just like a clicker (going really off topic here). I think a lot of trainers I've met have had success with a clicker since they've practically taught their dog to ignore their normal voice by blabbing to the dog the entire time. When they introduce the clicker, the dog pays attention to the marker & easily associates it with a command, since it's a distinct, new noise. The click noise is very obvious to the dog, just like head collar is, since it's different to what the dog has experienced before (although with the clicker, it's a good effect since you want the dog to associate the clicker with something. With the head collar, it's a bad effect since you don't want the dog to associate the head collar with something). Not sure if any of that made sense to anyone except me. And the OP is using a harness anyway, so sorry for going off topic & talking about head collars.

Indeed, and unless you make the conditioned stimulus something other than the harness they will pull as soon as you put them in something else. The evidence suggests that conditioned responses are never really "unlearned" whether it is extinction or punishment. We have to reinforce something else. I think this is one reason I do not really like head halters, I think the head halter is so constantly obvious to the dog (the dog is always aware of wearing the halter since it's on his actual face), that the dog very easily associates the non-pulling behaviour with the head collar itself, which means it can be a lot of work to ensure the dog generalises the non-pulling behaviour to wearing a regular collar. Far less work to fade a pinch or check chain than a headhalter since it "feels" just like a regular collar to the dog while the dog is wearing it. I don't know how that would work as regards a non-pull harness, since I have never used one. It seems like it would be less obvious to a dog than a head halter (since it's not constantly sitting on his snout), but is still clearly different to a collar. Perhaps if you put the harness on a few hours before the walk, and then put the regular collar on just before the walk, the regular collar would then become associated with not pulling?

I don't, although my dog is at the vet way more than that anyway. If you keep a good eye on your dog, take them to the vet whenever you notice something different, and learn to do a proper basic clinical exam yourself (palpate lymph nodes, auscultate heart sounds, abdominal palpation) then there is probably little reason to go to the vet for a clinical exam yearly. Remember though, dogs age far faster than humans, do so a 1 yearly exam for a dog is more equivalent to a 5 yearly exam for a human. So it's not as much of an "overkill" as it may sound at first glance.

I don't know much about breed showing, not really my area of interest, but good luck for it! I'm not sure if I'll ever obedience trial my girl either - probably not, since I don't plan to focus on it, and there's almost no point doing competitive obedience over here unless you're really into it, since you don't get titles until you win into the very top class. But we still do tricks for fun, I think it's good for her to learn body awareness, and it's fun for both of us.

That will hopefully be our next step, at the moment she believes that you have to put your front feet on first, then you can walk forwards and put your back feet on. I've just started teaching the concept of walk backwards, so hopefully we'll be able to put the two things together soon (walk backwards UNTIL your back feet are on the board). She is such a smart little cookie, it is so fun to see her working things out. Are you competing in two weeks? Good luck!

Sort of on topic, but sort of not - I've recently taught my girl to stand her back feet on a phone book on cue. This was, for some reason, hugely hard for her to understand. Front feet, no problem. All four feet, no problem. But back feet ONLY was apparently impossible to understand - we'd do a session every few months, for the last 9 months or so, and she'd look thoroughly bewildered every time. She finally got it yesterday, clever girl! And she's definitely got the concept down right, because if I ask for "back feet" when they're already on there, she'll stamp them in place and look at me for the reward. It's like she's finally worked out that she does have back feet. Anyone else taught this? I'm hoping to progress it into a handstand at some point when her shoulders are all fixed up - not sure how much success I'll have!

That is a bigger issue, but honestly, to tell you the truth, if I were you I would mainly be basing my decision on the the likely result of surgery. Hopefully the vet can give you a good idea what his likely quality of life will probably be after the operations. For us - a 90% chance of full recovery - putting her through surgery was a no brainer. I would definitely have done it even if she needed 6 months of crate rest afterwards (oh thank God she didn't!) because I know there is a good chance she will run and jump for years afterwards. But I wouldn't put her through that if there wasn't a very good chance she'd be a completely normal dog again afterwards. I know you will do the right thing by your boy. You're the only one on the spot, the only one with all the information, and the only who can decide what that is.

Ester C can cause gut disturbance in some dogs - possibly that's why he didn't enjoy taking it? The trick from what I've read is to find the highest level the dog can tolerate without causing an uncomfortable tummy. Different for every dog. I wouldn't put off surgery due to the recovery time, Cosmolo - I wouldn't let that be a factor in my decision making, if I were you. If my girl (1 year old WL mally) can do crate rest for 4 weeks without going bonkers, your boy can certainly do it. The trick is lots of mental games - make him think, make him earn his dinner piece by piece, wear him out that way, there are loads of tricks you can learn without the dog ever leaving the crate. We have a crate in the car too, so she can go everywhere with me & get mental stimulation without walking around. It goes faster than you'd think, and the dogs do cope.

Yes, I hear you and can sympathise. My old boy was similar. And it made my blood boil to hear other dog owners smugly remark that problem dogs always have problem owners - without hearing the story of how I inherited my boy already "broken", or how much more controllable & calm he'd become since I'd acquired him, and without watching us work together, and usually without even having experienced working with real dog aggression themselves. That's why I threw it out there as a suggestion only. I've seen it happen, and I think it's definitely a factor in some dog behaviour problems. But blaming aggression on the owner secretly liking it is just as silly as blaming it every incidence of aggression on anything else. Every dog, and every situation, is different.

Oh interesting Ness, thanks! I'm am learning things today. Yes, that looks like what I see in the ring here. I've often wondered if the reason Rally is becoming so big in NZ is that we don't have any titles under TCQ. And although it sounds shallow, I think lots of people are unwilling to put heaps of work into obedience competitions when the majority of them aren't ever likely to ever get a title out of it. Whereas Rally, you get a title at a much lower standard of proficiency, recognizing the work you've put in - even if you're not competitive with the top obedience border collies!

Oh really? Perhaps we followed them, then, and you guys followed the U.S.A? Interesting! Is the UK the same with us with the really close heeling, and with the no titles awarded under TCQ (= winning into the top class) as well?

Good luck! I'm in NZ too, and won out of elementary into special beginners with my last boy just before I lost him (he was dog aggressive, so although the actual obedience exercises were easy, having him perform nicely around other dogs was worth more than the ribbon to me!) Looks like you've made a good start. It's strange how the NZ obedience regulations are so different to the Oz ones. I think we're the odd ones out internationally, with our having to actually come top in the class (not just reach a certain number of points) in order to graduate to the next level. The very close heeling style we are required to do is also really different to what they do in Oz ("the judge does not want to see any daylight between you and the dog!" - in Oz they call that crowding!) Plus we don't actually get awarded any official title until we're at the second to highest obedience level - unlike Oz, the dogs don't get any title for winning out of the lowest 3 classes. I've often wondered why we are so weird! Let us know how you get on, anyway!

Perhaps one of the issues is that the woman concerned likes being the very favourite person of the young dog, and is unwilling to do anything to make the dog "love" her less? I don't know at all if this is the case here, but I've seen it happen. Person doesn't really like the consequences of the dog's possessive, clingy behaviour (separation anxiety, jealousy towards other people & animals) - but deep down actually likes that the dog is clingy with them, since it makes them feel they are well bonded with the dog.

That's one reason I don't go to obedience classes anymore - I think it's unreasonable for a dog to attend to you with full focus for 30 minutes at a stretch. Like Huski, I'd rather have 100% focus for minutes at a time, than marginal focus for half an hour. It's not such a big deal if you just want household obedience, I guess, but if you ever want to compete I feel that it's better to just work the dog in short bursts and put him away when she's not being worked, so he learns that when he's with you it's working time. Another alternative is to have a cue that tells pup it is time to work (i.e., that rewards are available), and a cue to tell him that work time is over. I wouldn't correct a baby like that for having her head down. He's just trying to learn about the world the only way he knows how. Rather, try to make what you're doing more interesting that the smells.

I admit, we're still working on a graceful dismount! At the moment the best way I've found is to kneel down, and have her get off backwards - she stands her back feet down on the ground (I click here to make it worth her while to pause), then her front feet too. The only bruises I've got is when she smacks me in the face with her front paws as she's trying to get up. Apparently it takes more coordination than you'd think to jump on someone's shoulders. Haven't filmed the training, but might put a clip or photo of the finished trick up when we've perfected it, if anyone's interested.

I am not a trainer, so have nothing to add, except that it makes me sad that the old dog has to put up with being attacked in his own home, when he should be able to rely on his pack leaders/owners to protect him. I hope they get it sorted out, for the old dog's sake.

Congratulations!

I enjoy seeing people get involved with their dogs in those activities but otherwise....the irony here is spot on. I don't think they let anyone do KNPV outside the Netherlands anyway, do they? So we couldn't have it in Australasia even if we wanted to. That's my understanding anyway. It would be great to have Mondio here though, I've watched some footage of trials and it looks super fun.

Tee hee, I think my little malligator is trained 90% positively, and I don't think anyone would call her low drive. I don't really even know how you'd train a low drive dog with positive only, since they don't have drive for anything as a reward? It's easy with a high drive dog, since they always want something, so you always have leverage to make them do something. But on the other hand I think I get away with that with her because I try to squelch her "bad" behaviours very quickly, preferably the first time she tries them out, before they can escalate into something really persistent or ingrained, as Huski and Corvus are saying. Of course, I also may have just gotten away with using very few corrections since she's still pretty much a baby in some ways. I may change my tune when a few years has passed and become a pinch collar devotee for her. Hopefully not!

Any of the ring sports would be awesome to watch, and perhaps one day participate in.

Look forward to hearing what you find out! Not that I'm looking at getting one anytime soon - my hands are quite full enough right now - just nice to learn more. I do think the mallies are a nicer size, though (my girl is fun size!)

Thanks Nath. It is hard to talk behaviour, I find that different people will often use the same terms to mean different things! But am I understanding it right that you are meaning, dutchies tend to be just as stable & friendly in public as a nice mally would be, but are lower prey drive & more "serious" when they do bite work?

I see your point, but also think that consistency does take brainpower for some people! And it certainly takes time and will power - I think it is often very tempting to let the dog get away with pulling "just this once" because you're already late getting home from the walk, or you have the kids with you and they're getting grumpy at all the stopping & starting, or the weather has turned foul and you just want to get home... etc etc... Heck, in both positive training schools I've attended, I've seen people letting the dog actually pull them to class - and then get surprised when the dog pulls during class! Perhaps these dog owners "should" be willing to put more time and effort into training their dogs. But what I've observed actually happens is that they tend to get fed up, give up and leave. Yes, I do have my small animal surgery and medicine exam tomorrow - ugh. DOL is too tempting a way to procrastinate. Surely for you this counts as revision, though? Edited for sense!