Staranais

Thanks in advance for your efforts, Erny, in case I ever end up living in Vic! :D

Yeah, my girl is mostly pretty good at keeping the leash loose by herself, but she occasionally needs a reminder. If she starts to pull for more than a second or so I normally call her back & make her walk by my side in a sloppy heel for a while. Only non-pulling dogs get to wander & sniff things. Cos, you know, I'm a big meany.

Oh my goodness, then this thread has just started to make a WHOLE lot more sense to me. I was wondering what this mysterious powerful "FAI" body was and how I had never heard of it before! Oops.

We do the same as Aidan describes, & in my case my girl is allowed to wander within the confines of the leash & sniff what she likes but not pull on it. If she feels tension on the leash, I expect her to relax it so the leash is loose again.

I think it's a situation like a copywrite or trademark type arrangement where a body is given the rights to use the breed name as I understood it. The GSD for instance could be bred as they are today, but could not be registered as GSD's. The breed club would have to apply to the ANKC to name them something else in order to be registered???, something along those lines from a legal sense???. The GSD name I would imagine is owned by the SV. Oh really? I kind of assumed that there would be no way to enforce the AnKC not being allowed to use the GSD "name", since it's so hard to enforce international law. But if you are right, then I can see why the AnKC doesn't want to get offside with the FAI. They'd need to call them Australian Alsatians or something. That's how I understand it. It could take 20 years for any action to become of a naming rights situation, but I think the ANKC is bound by the FAI structure. The FAI apply the requirements of the German SV so I guess if a situation like that occurred, the ANKC would have to comply as a link in that chain. What does FAI stand for? I've had a google to learn more & can't seem to find it?

I think it's a situation like a copywrite or trademark type arrangement where a body is given the rights to use the breed name as I understood it. The GSD for instance could be bred as they are today, but could not be registered as GSD's. The breed club would have to apply to the ANKC to name them something else in order to be registered???, something along those lines from a legal sense???. The GSD name I would imagine is owned by the SV. Oh really? I kind of assumed that there would be no way to enforce the AnKC not being allowed to use the GSD "name", since it's so hard to enforce international law. But if you are right, then I can see why the AnKC doesn't want to get offside with the FAI. They'd need to call them Australian Alsatians or something.

So forgive me for being dense, but what actual ramifications would it have for Aussie breeders if the FAI decided it didn't recognise their dogs anymore? The FAI can hardly stop the AnKC calling their dogs "german shepherd dog", I wouldn't think - I mean, the FAI haven't got an international patent on the name (do they?!) And Aussie breeders could still take their dogs to AnKC shows, register them with the AnKC, right? Does it mean they couldn't export their dogs, is that the big issue? Is it a similar situation as if my mallie's pedigree was suddenly no longer recognised by the FCI, and only valid within NZ, so I couldn't export any of her offspring?

I've had the reasons explained to me, but not being directly involved, I tend to forget some of these things and I would need to hand this over to someone who does fully appreciate the inner workings of the breeds and breed organisations to answer properly. But my guess is that the FAI is held in great esteem (should I say, "the ultimate"?) and to have a GSD acknowledged and recognised by it would be one of the higher marks of excellence reflecting on your breeding stock. I guess. I'm sure I'm being too simplistic in my answer and stand to be corrected for it. Perhaps I need to go bug the GSD people with my questions then (or maybe one will see this thread and explain?) Thanks Erny!

Interesting thanks! So the kennel club *possibly* would prefer schutzhund to be illegal so there is no possibility that kennel club dogs will need to pass a schutzhund title to be recognised by the FAI? But, how does that work - does the FAI actually hold any sway over the kennel club anyway - do Aussie breeders care if they are no longer recognised by the FAI? What would the consequences be if the FAI no longer recognised Aussie KC german shepherds? I'm kind of glad I stuck to the mallies.

we had my 2 and hers out at the off lead late this arvo, she first passed a regular stool, then topped by a dark green grey squirt, then 5 minutes later another large run then 5 minutes later again a full on back spray. She is a big strong very healthy girl, so that will go in her favour I suppose. Ive just been told she didnt eat a whole bag as there is plenty left but she is unsure as to how much was in the bag to start? I'd give your vet a call & talk it through with them if I were you, see if there's any point bringing her in now. If they say don't bother, then I'd still keep a good eye on her and be prepared to take her in at the first sign of her looking actually crook (as opposed to looking bright & healthy but just having the squirts). JM(not yet qualified)O.

From what I know, vomiting, diarrhoea, and in worse cases sometimes pancreatitis I have heard? Depends how much dog eats, and how sensitive dog happen to be - some dogs seem to be more resistant than others, some get really crook. If she has just eaten it, vet could probably give activated charcoal or laxative to move it through quickly so she absorbs less? Edited to add: Have just had a look on VIN for you: "In most cases, just get a mild self-limiting GI upset, but with larger ingestions, impaction or significant v/d, or HGE is possible. Stools will be dark after eating blood meal. " Hope that helps.

That's not good.

Oh really? Fair enough then. I've got to ask though... whose agenda? And why? It doesn't seem to me that schutzhund is much of a threat to the kennel club simply because the kennel club is much larger, much better known, and much better funded (well, it is over here, anyway - I presume it's the same in Oz?)

I don't know, to me the schutzhund situation seems a bit like the pitbull situation, where you have well meaning but ignorant members of the public driving the ban because pitbulls look dangerous to them and banning dangerous dogs is common sense. I think it's well meaning but ignorant people wanting to ban schutzhund too ("well of course people shouldn't be allowed to train dogs how to attack people! That's just common sense!") Although I imagine the Kennel Club won't move a muscle to help the sport out, I doubt they're behind attempts to ban it. Why would they bother? Schutzhund is no threat to them - most people couldn't care less about getting a dog with working titles unless they're actually going to work or seriously compete with it, and that's got to be less than a few % of dog owners. JMO.

I think they should still do the tests, even if they don't have many dogs to pick and choose from, to give them a baseline to know if they're improving the breed or not over the years. And IMO it's hard to tell if it's in your lines or not, if you don't test for it. To answer the OP, I guess I would get an untested dog, if I really wanted one. I would probably go on to score my own dog's hips, elbows, etc - even if I wasn't breeding the dog - and provide those results to the breeder. That way you're helping the situation with the breed yourself by providing useful information. If you say overseas breeders test & Australasian ones don't, then another option is to get a breeder who uses import semen, from an overseas dog that has had the tests done?

You do have a point. The way I figure it is that a "free range" chook may or may not have a good life, but I know that a cage one hasn't had one. We actually had an industry spin doctor from the (battery) egg chicken producers federation come to talk to my vet class last year & tell us why we shouldn't believe the hype from free range farmers, because cage chickens were just as happy as free range ones in their own way. His argument were... how shall I put this politely... not terribly convincing.

I think the trend will continue, just like it has with eggs - now that more and more people are wanting to buy free range eggs rather than caged, I've noticed them becoming more and more available in the supermarkets round here, which I think is great.

Yeah goes hand-in-hand (or paw-in-paw) with the hybrid-vigour myth, which is a borderline religion among designer-dog peddlers. Of course, the idea that hybrid vigour doesn't exist at all is also a myth that I hear repeated quite often by dog owners (the cattle farming industry uses crossbreeding extensively to improve production, and has quite a lot of evidence of its efficacy in different types of farming system). Whether the concept of hybrid vigour applies to purebred dogs is a different matter, of course. I think both sides of the "dogs are carnivores" "dogs are omnivores" debate thinks science is on their side. Luckily, dogs are adaptable animals and can thrive on a variety of diets.

I don't know, most people I know that say they can't "afford" to buy free range eggs or free range meat do seem to manage to afford to buy ciggies, alcohol, chocolate, take away meals, cable TV, and other luxuries. So whether people choose to buy free range or not is in my experience less to do with what people can literally afford, and more to do with what their priorities are. Do you prioritise animal welfare over other luxuries in your budget, or don't you? It seems obvious to me that free range meat & eggs are never going to be as cheap as cage ones from the same species, since they cost more to produce. Not only does it cost more to house free range animals, but they take substantially more food to put on the same amount of carcass weight, since they use some of their energy for walking round & acting like animals instead of for growing. Those costs have to be passed onto the consumer, or the farmer won't make enough of a profit for free range farming to be worthwhile.

There are vegan dog foods you can buy that pass AAFCO standards so technically are balanced for your dog, as far as science can achieve. I certainly believe that a species appropriate diet, including raw bones, is optimal for a dog. But I don't think the vegan kibble is any worse than the crappy supermarket kibble that hardly has any actual meat in anyway (although it will probably cost 20 times the price!) I'm vege too, but my animals aren't - the compromise I make for my animals is to try to avoid buying them meat from inhumanely raised animals. From what I have observed when working on farms, sheep, cattle, & free range chooks & pigs have a much nicer time of it than battery chicken or pigs. So I avoid buying anything except byproducts from battery chooks or pigs. And I'd love to find a good & reasonably priced dog food made from meat raised in NZ, because I know we have much stricter welfare codes than many overseas countries do for their farmed stock. So perhaps that is something you can suggest to your friend - trying to do her best to source humane meat for her animals, rather than making them vegan.

Hmmm, now I'm confused again Corvus. So if your dog is walking off leash on a street, and you come across an on leash dog, would he have a reliable off leash heel in that situation? Because if not, it seems to me the problem is nothing to do with the leash! It is just that he does not have a reliable heel in that situation, regardless of whether you choose to put a leash on him. Now if you are telling me you can heel your dog happily past other dogs on the street when he's off leash, but not when he's on a loose leash, I find that unlikely and kind of strange (although I guess it could happen).

Oh I see, I thought you were saying your dogs could heel reliably off leash but had big issues when you put a leash on. But you're just saying that theoretically you think it could happen? I see that theoretically it could happen. But I've never had it happen to me. And I think it's unlikely that it would, considering that a dog that can reliably heel off leash must have already generalised the behaviour very well around all sorts of other other distractions. I guess if it ever does happen to me, I'll worry about it then.

Well, if you say it doesn't generalise for your dog, I'll just need to take your word for it. I've never had that problem. If a dog can trot along nicely at my side off a leash, then I've never personally seen them start pulling simply because I've clipped a leash onto their collar (I'm talking about attaching a nice loose leash, of course, or even attaching a line and letting the dog pull it - if you stick a leash on and start tugging at your dog then I imagine that would entirely change the way he perceives the situation). But if your dog walks nicely offleash & then gets confused when you attach a leash, then I guess you'll just have to train through it if you are interested in doing so, just like any other type of distraction. I don't really know what else you want to hear?

I don't know, I guess it's how you define offleash reliability, I would say it included walking nicely off leash & think it's unlikely a dog would be able to walk nicely for you offleash then suddenly start to pull when you clipped on a leash? Guess it could happen, I've just never seen it. To answer your question, if the owners & dog are happy with the dog being on a head collar or harness, and don't want to wean it off, then I think that's cool. I've got nothing against them doing that. It's none of my business! But for those people who do want to wean the dog onto a flat collar, then I think which tools & methods are easier to wean off is a relevant consideration. Aidan, I don't think my girl would walk nicely for anyone else no matter what tool she was on. Or do anything else on command for most people, for that matter! It's not something we've ever trained for, so I wouldn't expect her to do it. The stimulus discrimination thing you just said makes sense, thanks.

I don't think it is? To me, good off leash reliability is pretty much the ultimate outcome of not relying on any tool. I mean, if my girl walks nicely at my side off leash on request, then it's going to be a pretty easy step to keep her doing it when I put on the leash, no matter what tool she's wearing? I'm confused, now.