Staranais

So it's a nerve thing, not a drive thing, do you think, Kavik? In that he's got the prey drive, but just isn't comfortable enough to express it when he's nervous about being in a new situation? Have you tried drive building with him (e.g. deprive him of tug except for short sessions a few times a day, & when he's really crazy for it, start to only do those sessions outside in strange locations until he's going into drive working comfortably in strange locations)? Or do you really think you're just not very good at tugging, & your nervousness rubs off on him? I am lucky in that my current girl is normally keen to tug no matter my mood, but with some dogs I have seen, they do seem quite sensitive to whether their handler is also having fun. More "play" than "prey", perhaps. Tried running away from your dog & using your best crazy squeaky voice?

No it's not. In this context deprivation is an establishing operation. It increases appetite for the reward. Delaying a reward does not IME increase appetite. It could arguably create a bit of frustration which might result in increased arousal which may manifest itself in the form of greater physical activity and/or motivation. That's a different system afaik, though. Deprivation seems to be a sliding scale, to me. Not an either-or thing. Unless the dog gets free access to your training treats & training games & your attention etc at all times, whenever he desires them, regardless of his behaviour, then you are using deprivation to help motivate the dog. He is deprived of that particular reward unless he co-operates with you. If I fed my dog roast meat or tugged on her toy with her whenever she wanted it, she'd have no reason to screech to a halt & come zooming back to me when she heard the recall cue. She comes back when she hears the cue since she is deprived of roast meat & tug toy play except when she has the chance to interact with me. Some people of course take it further, and deprive the dog of all toys, or all attention, except when they are training them. But that is just a more severe form of the deprivation that every trainer must practice to some degree.

Um I see, fair enough. I personally prefer to have the toy only being "fun" when I'm involved, just makes it much easier for training since the dog can't ever self reward (I can leave the toy on the ground for example & practice our heeling over it, if she picks up the toy before I cue her to do so, I simply refuse to play so she hasn't been rewarded & ask her to put it back down & try again). Also makes it easier to train a nice out in high drive since I can just NRM & walk off if she doesn't out when asked to do so, and she is not rewarded even though she is still holding the toy. But each to their own. So analysing it, your problem really is (IMO) that he likes parading more than he likes catching (this must be the case or else he'd forgo parading in order to return it to get the chance to catch it again). Does he like tug better than parading? If so, can you cue him to come back to you & tug after he has caught instead of parading (use a ball on a string so you can tug with it). Or I guess another option would be to have two toys & as soon as he caught the first one, you make it really clear that your toy is far cooler (run away from the dog waving your toy & squealing happily until his attention is back on you again) & shape him brining back the first toy in order to get the second one?

You may have already found your answer, but what I would do would depend completely on whether this was intended to be a formal competition retrieve, or a play exercise. It's not clear to me from your posts which you are after. To me these are two different things, completely different, & never the two shall meet. If the former, I'd go back to the beginning & clicker train it again from the foundation, since something has obviously gotten lost in translation & he's incorrectly seeing possession of the toy as the reward (rather than as a neutral task he has to complete in order to earn the reward). If it's the second, just a casual reward for fun, then on one level I'd say who cares as long as he's enjoying himself, the goal of play is to have fun, and if he thinks parading the toy is fun then who are we to argue? Except that if you intend to use the retrieve as a reward for training, then I guess the concern is that it sounds like you have a dog who has decided that merely possessing the toy is more fun than interacting with you using the toy, & that is something I really try to avoid - I like having my participation being integral to the play reward for a variety of reasons. JMO.

Done. ;) Hopefully if lots of us write, someone will pay attention? Edited to add, I was in two minds about posting what I'd sent here, but just in case it serves as inspiration for someone else: Dear Member of Parliament, I have recently been informed by a friend of mine who lives in Victoria that your state is intending to amend your dangerous dog legislation to give council workers the right to make an on-the-spot decision to euthanise any dog they deem "dangerous", giving owners no right of appeal. I have also been informed that the new legislation will only allow owners forty eight (48) hours to find and reclaim a missing pet. As a dog owner, I am dismayed that you feel it is appropriate to euthanise dogs without giving owners any right of appeal. I am especially appalled that this proposed legislation includes dogs that have never bitten anyone, but merely "look dangerous" in the opinion of a council employee. As a veterinary student, I can assure you that we handle dogs every day in our clinic that may "look dangerous", and may even growl at or rush at people when in a novel and frightening situation, but that do not bite and that would pass an impartial temperament test with flying colours. I strongly feel that owners should have the right to obtain an impartial assessment of the dog's temperament from an independent qualified dog trainer, and present this information at an appeal, before any decision is made to euthanise any animal. I also feel that 48 hours is an entirely insufficient length of time to allow an owner to find and reclaim a missing pet. Council recording systems are not perfect - I have heard of several cases where people have been told on the telephone that no animal fitting their pet's description was present at the pound, only to find the animal there when they visited in person, recorded as a different colour or breed. Holding animals for at least a week to enable working pet owners to visit all the local pounds in person seems only reasonable. I realise I do not currently live in your constitutency, so my views may be worthless to you. However, after I graduate I am considering moving to Australia to seek work as a veterinary surgeon. As a dog owner, I will certainly not be seeking employment anywhere in Victoria if these laws pass, and will also discourage my classmates from doing so. Thank you very much for your attention.

No one feeds my dog except me without express permission. Same with giving her toys. I have a word with anyone who tries. It is not OK. I was a little more lenient with my last dog since he was primarily a pet. But I still think it's extremely rude to feed someone's dog without checking with them first. I do not want my dog learning to mug strangers for food. Makes training so much harder. If it doesn't bother you, then I guess the only thing wrong with letting strangers feed your dog without asking, is that it helps perpetuate the idea that it's OK to feed a stranger's dogs without asking the owners.

Hey, I look at the training forum and see my name! I feel special! And I just had my last exam today too, so I can read it with no guilt. Thanks Corvus!

Is there anything useful that can be done by someone living overseas? Will letters from foreigners be useful? If so, who can I write to? I don't know any Aussie politicians. Out of the loop, sorry. Also, a suggestion, I've just come upon this thread (don't hang out in general that much) & although I've had a quick flick through I'm loath to read 18 pages (sorry!) Selfish but I suspect many other people may feel the same way, even if they live locally. Could anyone summarise the current state of affairs? Perhaps we could summarise & ask for it to be made a temporary sticky at the top, so it doesn't need bumping? Thanks for putting in all this work, Erny. I don't live where you do, but restrictive dog laws always seem to spark copy cat laws in other countries, so in a way if these laws are passed this could affect us all. In any case I certainly won't be applying for any jobs in Vic after I graduate if these laws pass! I know for a fact that if my girl somehow escaped the yard she would probably rush at any dog rangers she met (screaming happily and wagging her tail the whole way, of course). There is no way I'd risk moving to a place where she could be summarily killed for looking like she might rush at someone.

Who isn't? A potential breeder who didn't ask me lots of questions about myself & a potential breeder didn't ask about my handling experience & my goals for the dog, is a breeder I would not be interested in. As in any potential breeder who did not do these things. A responsible breeder doesn't just hand out working line malinois to anyone who puts their hand up.

I would be disappointed if a potential breeder didn't ask me a lot of questions about myself. I don't mean anything overly invasive since some things are none of their business, but if a breeder didn't ask about my handling experience & my goals for the dog then it would suggest to me they were not responsible & didn't care where their dogs went. It would also suggest to me that they didn't intend to put a lot of work in trying to match me up with the right puppy for my goals & situation. So overall, not a breeder I'd be interested in.

Yes, don't bring balls or toys. Don't let your dog approach an onleash dog without asking the owner first, as it could be leashed for a reason. & just because a dog is wagging its tail, doesn't make it friendly or mean it wants to play.

It can simply be stress. I left my malinois at the kennel for a week, a few months back, and when she got home she didn't want to know me - just wanted to sleep for 24 hours - exactly how she acts when something really stresses her out. THEN she got really happy to be back!

I'm sorry then, what type of "drive" were you talking about if you don't mean prey drive, and don't mean aggression? It's interesting to hear different people's views on what working dogs "should" be like. But when it comes down to it, and no offence intended to anyone here, I agree it does make sense to take the word of people with real life experience in handling police & security dogs. And the ones I have talked to appear to have no hesitation in decribing their dogs as having "aggression". I will email the Poilce Dog handler and post his reply! I do hope that will suffice as experience! I have no interest in this breed just wanted to correct the notion of all Police Dogs must have agression ( Which is not how they are trained!) Thanks, it will be interesting to hear what he has to say on the subject of how their police dogs are assessed, and what drives they test. (Edited to add, although I will be very confused if he says police dogs do not need any aggression, since that is exactly the opposite to what one handler told me about a month ago - that he hopes his dog displays more aggression as it matures!)

I'm sorry then, what type of "drive" were you talking about if you don't mean prey drive, and don't mean aggression? It's interesting to hear different people's views on what working dogs "should" be like. But when it comes down to it, and no offence intended to anyone here, I agree it does make sense to take the word of people with real life experience in handling police & security dogs. And the ones I have talked to appear to have no hesitation in decribing their dogs as having "aggression".

I hate when small dogs annoy my big dog, but I'm not in fear for her life when it happens. I get the point that everyone should keep their dogs well controlled, no matter what size their dogs are, but I think there's a difference there too.

This is where it goes off track IMO because dogs that genetically light up fast are nervy dogs that lack confidence coupled with defence drive is a nasty dog with the potential to be uncontrollable. Half of the dogs like this won't "out" and are not clear headed enough to take the command. Fast light up's and over sharpness although it looks tough and is workable in defence doesn't equate to nerve strength and is usually the opposite. Dog's renowned for hard nerve and fighting drive are nothing like that, calm and uneffected until commanded or triggered to attack. It's a total misconception IMHO that unprovoked displays of aggression is the result of a hard nerved dog. There's more to dog temperament than just prey, defence, & nerve, though. It's not like being nervous is the only characteristic that can make a dog a poor pet. How about social aggression/rank aggression, for example - the dog that would love to be top of the heap and says "oh yeah? Gonna make me?" when someone tells it do so something it would prefer not to do. This type of temperament can make a dog far "too much dog" for a novice/pet home, without making it a nervous dog or a poor working candidate. As for the poster who said that police dogs are assessed only on prey drive and not aggression - if that were true then we could use solid nerved greyhounds as patrol dogs!

If they got really grumpy they could probably do you for libel, depending on what you said in the info sheets? I don't think they can make you move away if you're on public property, though, so the footpath outside their shop should be OK I'd presume?

I'm tempted to say... 1. Call your dog back to heel 2. Ask other owner to do the same 3. If they don't, produce super soaker from inside your bag and give other dog a thorough point-blank wetting. Or else, avoid the park? I mean, is there anywhere else you can go to exercise her?

Ha, I have the opposite problem where I live it seems. Very few offleash dogs wandering the streets round here. But I was just out walking my dog, and I had one woman pull a very nasty face, give a little shiver, and say "ugh" as I walked my (excited and prancing but not lunging or barking) malinois past her on a very short leash. I guess some people are never happy. I mean, how dare I walk my leashed, under control, dog down a public footpath? Not nearly as problematic as encountering strange dogs, I admit! But just wanted to vent... I hope she runs into an offleash dog, tee hee.

Really? I find that very sad. Dogs have been our watchdogs & our hunting companions since the stone age. I can't believe that the Australian national kennel council has the best interests of any of the hunting or guardian breeds at heart if they don't want them to do their jobs anymore.

Shortstep, I don't think the guard dog centre have a particularly savory reputation among Aussie working dog trainers. I think ring trials clips can be helpful to help people understand a normal, good, balanced working dog can be like. They're sport, but they show that the dogs ideally have a huge amount of obedience & control as well as courage & aggression - which is what most people are worried about. Here are two - one is top level dogs & one is just a brevet - but both possibly a better advertisement for the working dog than the clip you posted: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkqfZYp_TVM...eos=qDLWqKu0lVk

I have talked to many people who didn't even bother trying to get a pedigree dog & just got a puppy from a petshop or out of the newspaper, and from what I can see the reasons mostly tend to be: 1. They assumed a pedigree pup would be really expensive compared to a pet shop dog 2. They thought they'd have to jump through lots of complicated hoops to be allowed a pup, compared to just getting a pet shop dog 3. They didn't see any benefit to a purebred dog if they weren't into the show scene (or they thought that the receipt they got from the pet store WAS papers!) I'm sure there are many other reasons people pick a petshop pup over a pedigree, but those are the most common I've heard. I understand breeders don't always want to transparently advertise puppy prices, but I think if it is not done, may non-doggy people will assume the worst - that if you have to ask, you can't afford it!

I know individuals who prefer this sort of dog. I don't think the majority of breeders of working lines think this is the standard to which they should strive though. Perhaps it depends on the handler & what they want the dog for? For a SAR or sport or a PP dog, being social & a good family dog is an important virtue. But if I were training a MWD or similar then perhaps I would put up with having a dog that was suspicious & dominant & came up the leash at me if it was also exceptionally ballsy when it counted? I don't really know - heck, I just do scent work with mine, not even bitesports - but I figure, different folks probably have different priorities. I don't think it is one-size-fits-all with working dogs. I don't know anyone who would want a nerve bag, though.

LOL, has anyone noticed that (on the whole) it is owners of working line dogs who have said they don't mind the wording of the ad, and owners of show line dogs that don't like it? Off topic but the cops here breed their own dogs, they don't always manage to meet demand I believe, but they do make an attempt to breed specifically what they want. I'm surprised they don't do that in Aussie.

Yes, I too have met working dogs that were PTS as being too sharp = weak nerves = fear aggression & dangerous. On the other hand, I've been told by several breeders (who seemed to know what they were talking about ) that a little bit of sharpness (reactive to stimuli) is a very good thing in a working dog (as compared to a sport dog). But I don't think anyone who knew what they were talking about would want a fear aggressive dog watching their back when the sh*t hit the fan. I have met dogs that have been inexpertly trained in defence alone, and the end result wasn't very pretty at all. I am lucky in my own girl is very sociable & reasonably handler soft - I went out of my way to find a breeder who bred for social & stable working line dogs - she suits what I want to do with her perfectly. She'd still be way too much of a handful for the average family, though. Granted she's a working line mally, not a GSD, but I don't think she'd make anyone very happy if she were placed in your average pet home. And I suspect she's not nearly as hard or dominant as some of the really top flight military & protection dogs. Some dogs just aren't meant to be pets, IMO.