Staranais

Hey Wagalot, Not trying to start a fight - you're allowed not to like them! But I was wondering what you see as the difference between a choke and a prong? They're both adversive "punishment based" collars (and in fact when I put both types on my leg and gave them a really good tug I personally thought the choke hurt more than the prong.) So I don't understand why you think one fits into a positive training regime and the other doesn't. Can you explain? Ta!

No offense, but if he won't listen to you when you're out walking and constantly "goes macho", he probably doesn't know you're the boss. Being boss doesn't mean beating up on your dog or hitting him. Look at how dogs interact with each other - the top dog hardly ever bites the other dogs. He doesn't have to, since the other dogs just know that he's top dog. You need to have the same kind of relationship with your dog. I would do a search on NILIF ("nothing in life is free") and start using that programme with your dog - it's a great way to practice your commands while enforcing your alpha status. I also think you've got great advice from Erny, as regards your dog only obeying you at home. When you ask your dog to do a well known trick in a new environment, it's easy to assume that your dog knows what you're asking for. The problem is that dogs don't always generalise very well. For instance if you teach him "sit!" in the bedroom he might be great at sitting in the bedroom, but might not be able to do it down at the dogpark. If you want your dog to perform well under distraction, then you need to practice with him under gradually increasing levels of distraction. And like Erny says, getting him to a behaviourist or professional trainer who is experienced in working with aggressive dogs can only help. These folks see "problem" dogs all the time, so can help you diagnose the causes of the aggression and prescribe work to correct it. I'd also recommend a book to you... Emma Parsons "Click to Calm". It focuses mainly on fear aggression so don't expect it to necessarily have all the answers, but it does have exercises that are good for all sorts of different dogs. And it's positive, so I think you'll like it.

Ah thanks Tess. Then I think we're on the same page - I teach him new commands with a clicker and R+/P- only, but once he's learned the command I'll proof with verbal/physical correction.

Can I suggest? Get a really really high value treat, something your dog absolutely loves. Show it to her. Let her sniff it - tease her a little. Ask her to sit. If she sits for it immediately to get the treat, then she knows the command, at least in that situation. If she won't sit, then she probably doesn't know it properly. :rolleyes: My dog used to have selective hearing - would sit immediately if he knew you had a great treat on you, but would "forget" if you didn't.

OK, a question for Kavik then... I'm wondering - what exactly is the benefit of giving the dog a choice whether to obey a command or not? If a dog thinks he has the option to disobey, then he'll only obey when he feels like it. Isn't that just making your dog unreliable? I mean, if Monsta's chasing a cat towards the road, I want him to come back when I call. I don't want him to think he has a choice, in case he chooses wrong and gets hurt by a car! Genuine question - thanks in advance :rolleyes:

So by "compulsion" you just mean that the dog has no choice whether to obey? As opposed to "inducement" meaning you try to encourage the dog to obey, but it's ultimately the dog's choice? I guess that means a lot of "positive" clubs use compulsion training too then, even if they don't call it that. I mean, even if you're just reeling a dog in on a long line to teach it recall, you're still compelling it to come.

Well, at my house you do the command first time or you don't get the treat! Don't get me wrong, I have heaps of patience for my dog if he's learning a new trick. But if he's just pushing his boundaries and refusing to obey a known command, then he has to learn that he won't get rewarded for that. If it was me, I'd give her 2 seconds to comply - if she doesn't, then let her watch you eat the treat yourself and make her wait 10 minutes for another chance to earn a treat. If she wants the treats enough, I promise she'll work the rules out really quickly. Edited to add - but you might want to use cheese or something, not raw liver.

Or put a bandanna over it. That's what we do.

Oh I wasn't talking about you, Anne! If you've tried the thing out, I have no problem if you choose not to use it. I was just saying that I choose not to trash it before I've seen it in person. After all, I thought a regular prong was cruel before I tried one. And I thought an e-collar was mean, till I spoke to some great e-collar trainers. Don't want to keep making the same mistake, so I'll reserve judgement on this one till I try it out!

The plastic ones are called a "Good Dog Collar": Good dog collar It does look a bit spikey, but I hesitate to condemn it before I've actually tried it out. After all, it annoys me when people with no prong experience condemn me for using one.

If a dog has a really low food drive and a really low prey drive, how could you teach them? Can you increase a dogs drive somehow? Like maybe increase its prey drive by playing tug games with it? (Just a theoretical question - my dog has neither problem...)

I knew I had an article somewhere! Here it is... http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm Good luck with your girl. She's very pretty, by the way.

Google "nothing in life is free". It's basically about reinforcing your position in the pack structure without using force, by making the dog work for what it wants. So if your dog wants its dinner, make her sit and wait politely first. If she wants to get up on the sofa, ask her lie down first. It's a good way of incorporating obedience practice into your everyday life. I don't know if NILIF would help you, but it worked really well for my staff's general obedience.

I am not a trainer - but I do have a Staffy. I can't speak for the entire breed - but mine is VERY stubborn. The most important thing I do with my staff is follow NILIF. He's not the perfect dog, but his behaviour has become so much better after we started with this programme. Is a group class better than teaching at home? In a group class, you have the chance to proof your commands in the presence of other dogs. That's the main reason that I take my dog to obedience school. But even if you take your dog to group classes, you'll still have to do a lot of work teaching your dog at home or in private lessons. Hope that helped some.

Well, you're the expert I've always assumed that he would never bite me, since he's very polite and submissive at home, and has never turned on me before even when angry at other dogs. But you're right, he could re-direct at me if he really gets frustrated. I should probably keep that in mind.

He goes out of his way to seek confrontation with other dogs - particularly other entire males. Other dogs he meets, he's often rude to them (mounting behaviour etc), but he won't actually attack them. I can tell when he wants to fight a dog, the first sign is that he looks straight at them and kind of stiffens up. If they don't act submissive, he puts his hackles up, puts his tail RIGHT up, stands on his tiptoes and belly growls at them. If they still aren't submissive, he'll spring at them. I could be wrong, but I've always read that as rank not fear aggression. Sorry, should have said that they thought he was a danger to me. He's not - never acts at all cocky or rude round the house.

They bring their dogs too? Wow, that's amazing. It would probably cheaper to bribe you to fly over though, lol. I totally understand that you can't recommend a course of action over the net - cheeky of me to ask really. Don't suppose there are there any books you could point me towards, or any NZ trainers you'd recommend?

Can you tell me what you'd do then? Or could you tell me how I could improve what I'm doing so it's more effective? I really really wish that was possible! There are five dog trainers I've been able to track down in this town. Every single one uses only positive methods. None are particularly experienced in dealing with game aggressive dogs, or with Bull Terriers. None will countenance using a prong. None will use an e-collar. The ones who I have contacted have told me that my dog is either "afraid" of other dogs, which even I know is wrong - except for the one who suggested that my dog is just plain "dangerous". I totally agree that I'm by no means an experienced trainer, but I'm afraid I'm all the dog's got at the moment. And thanks for your advice - I really do appreciate it.

I honestly think that most trainers that advertise as "positive" or "purely positive" really just mean that they try not to use physical corrections. The one trainer I know who describes herself as purely positive (won't use verbal corrections) still uses negative punishment, so even she's not purely positive in the operant conditioning sense of the term. Since the general public normally think of "positive" as meaning "good" or "nice", then I guess calling yourself "positive" is a good marketing ploy - who wouldn't want to go to a "positive" trainer? It just gets kind of confusing when you talk operant conditioning, since those "positive" trainers don't actually only use operant conditioning "positive" techniques. This issue is really very confusing.

Oh good, my thick as a brick SBT should get it by Christmas then! Sorry, I know I said that last post was the last dumb question, but please bear with me... ;) At the moment when it looks like he's about to go into his "fight" drive, I give him a command (e.g "look at me" or "sit"), then either reward or correct depending on his response. It seems to be working OK - he's getting the idea that he needs to listen to me even if he'd prefer to fight. But giving a command doesn't work when he's already gone into drive, since then he can't focus on me. I'm hoping that with practice under greater and greater distractions, I can delay him going into "fight drive" longer and longer. Is that kind of what you mean? Or do you mean raise the threshold some other way? If you do come over, and it's open to the public, please let me know! I'll definately come.

I get it, I get it! Thanks! A few more pesky questions, then I'll leave you all alone... About putting a dog into drive... So, if I say "ready" to my dog each time before getting him hyped up with the toy, then eventually I can say "ready" and he'll know it's time to work? Is that kind of what you mean Steve? How long does that take, before he no longer needs the toy to go into drive? And one more dumb question coming up. My dog is a very game bull terrier - compared to the other pet dogs I've known he seems to have moderate food drive, high prey drive and a SUPER high drive to fight other male dogs (don't know what you call that?). So I'd be best to train him in prey drive? Or is there some way to train him by using his "dog-dog fight" drive? I don't want to give him the reward of fighting other dogs obviously, but this seems to be what motivates him the most. PS - any plans for a tour of NZ Steve?

Hi pgm, I just read some old posts where k9 said he used teaching, training and proofing stages. He said he didn't correct in the teaching or proofing stage, only in the training stage. That was what confused me - I can't see why he wouldn't, but then again perhaps my definition of proofing is different to how he uses the term? (I can dig out the post tonight if you like, but am off on search right now).

OK, so this is what I've got so far... 1) Building drive in a dog means getting them hyped up so they want a tug toy or a game. 2) Training in drive means the dog learns he has to comply with your commands in order to get the tug toy or game. 3) If you have to correct the dog for noncompliance with a known command, you immediately get him hyped up again ("back into drive"). Is that kind of right? I think I must still be missing something, since this still just seems like regular teaching, only using a game/toy as a reward instead of food/praise. And two specific questions, for anyone in the know... Myska has said that training in drive is better than using food as a motivator, since you don't always have food with you. I must be missing something, since I don't always have a tug toy on me either to get the dog into drive - how is that different? And question number two - why does the dog get no corrections while proofing? He knows the command, right, so why is he not corrected if he doesn't obey?

Thanks Myska! I will go back and read the posts you mentioned, and come back with more informed questions tommorrow!

OK... thought I had it, but now I realise I was just confused. I understand that if the dog wants the ball and I give him a food reward instead (or vice versa), then that's not training in drive. So what if my dog's just lying round, and I ask him to do something (say, I want him to go find my partner). He's not really in any kind of drive at the moment. If I was training in drive, do I have to PUT him into prey drive before asking him to do the command, so that I can satisfy the drive?