Staranais

I'll swap my clicker & food for a squeaky toy then, and see what happens to his retrieve... hey, can't get worse! Thanks for all your help.

I was backchaining - teaching the dumbell presentation first, then adding the pickup, then adding the runout, etc. Is that what you mean by teaching it in separate exercises? Can you explain a little bit further what you mean? Do you mean teaching the dog to bring the dumbell back, in order to get given the prey item (like a swap, the dumbbell swapped for a higher value item, like a squeaky toy)? I can see how that would really help motivation, but how would it help the mouthing? Sorry if I'm being dense. Thanks heaps (again!)

Thanks Labandpoodle. Unfortunately, he's not keen to play tug with the dumbbell - I've already taught him to give it up to me when I reach for it! If I can't solve this any other way though, perhaps I'll start again with a different item, and try playing tug.

I know you're very probably right, it's just that he doesn't look stressed to me. Retrieving is one of his favourite games, when we're walking in the park he spends most of his offleash time looking for a stick to give to me, so I can throw it for him. Why would he do that if retrieving stressed him out? Both. When he's fresh, he'll run out quickly and bring it back, and only chew while he's sitting there waiting for me to take it. If he's a bit tired from lots of playing or retrieving, he'll sometimes run out and rip the stick to bits, instead of bringing it back. And sometimes even if we're not retrieving, if we're just in the yard or something, he'll go find some stick to chew on. Just lie down beside me and munch on it until the stick has been totally destroyed. Thanks K9force!

My old club: Good: 1. Fun activities, including some agility 2. Positive emphasis (food treats and toys encouraged) 3. No breed discrimination Bad: 1. Chaotic and undisciplined (often to the point of being unsafe, with uncontrolled and offleash dogs zipping everywhere. The atmosphere was very stressful for owners of reactive/fearful/dog aggressive dogs, as you never knew when your dog would be approached or jumped upon by some offleash, uncontrolled dog. Also made it difficult for any owner trying to use toy rewards, as they would often be mugged by excited offleash dogs who wanted the reward!) 2. Very large classes, so little one-on-one attention (hard problems often ignored) 3. Too positive (no corrections or training collars allowed, even in cases where the instructors' positive solutions hadn't helped the dog at all - as stated above, instructors tended to ignore these cases)

I hear ya! I had this problem years ago, when I started training my stafford at a community based school. Most of the instructors there had only trained a couple of dogs, and they had never seen such severe rank-based dog aggression before. My dog got worst while we went to that school - he learnt that he could get away with absolutely anything (including posturing and fighting) and the only consequence was that he would get a treat when he stopped, or at the worst possibly be removed from the scene and told 'BAH!'. I quit when I worked out that my dog was, basically, being used as their guinea pig. If I ever go back, it will only be to use their dogs as distractions. Their hearts were in the right place, but I definately got what I paid for.

Really? I know you know what you're talking about, but I should point out that this is a dog that loves to chew. He really loves to chew, for some reason. If I ever let him have the prey item when we've finished playing, he'll run off and chews it (then bring it back to me to throw again, after a while). I was kind of assuming he was just chewing cos he liked to, and cos I hadn't yet taught him not to?

That's clever - unfortunatly my dumbell is plastic! I might head off to the hardware store for some metal pipe, I'm sure I can stick some wooden blocks on the end to make a dumbell. Kavik - I'm not currently at an obedience club. I left after we got our CGC a couple of months ago, since the club really wasn't suiting my dog at all. I'm currently looking for a club that suits my dog better! Thanks for the idea, though.

Thanks Pax. Finding a metal retrieve item might be a good option, if I can't fix it another way, since I don't think metal would be very appealing to chew. Do you know where I could get an appropriately sized bar from, though? Perhaps a hardware store?

Yes he can! Very powerful jaws, and he's quite capable of fidgeting them while he's resting his face in my hands. Thanks for the idea though. Like I said we have tried: Plastic dumbell Wooden sticks of several different diametres Various pieces of cloth And all of these get chewed upon. I can certainly invest in a smaller dumbell and give it a go, but I don't think it will solve the problem of him chewing on the cloth (which we need for scent discrimination).

I've been attempting to teach my dog a formal retrieve for months now, with little success. He has an excellent, very solid, very reliable play retrieve. I am attempting to turn that into a formal retrieve. The problem is that I have not been able to eliminate the mouthing! At the moment, I have a dog who waits nicely for me to throw, runs out quickly and brings back the dumbell, then sits in front position chewing... I have tried teaching the hold in front separately, using a clicker to mark him before he starts to chew, but can't seem to get the concept across to him (it's like his jaws work on automatic, and he can't hold the dumbell for more than a second before his jaws start up, regardless of how I mark him.) I have tried using different items, in case they were uncomfortable in his mouth, but he chews on all of them. Cloth handkercheif, plastic dumbell, wooden stick - all get munched upon. I have tried waiting for him to stop chewing so I can mark that, but he does not stop chewing (if I wait too long, all he will do is eventually drop the dumbell and try something else to get the reward). Someone suggested that I tug on the toy so he holds on more firmly, but being the well trained dog he is he just gives me the dumbell when I do that... All I can think of is maybe giving him something fragile to carry (can't think what, though - he loves the taste of egg, so that would be counter productive), and only rewarding him if he doesn't break it? That doesn't seem particularly practical. Suggestions please! How do you teach a stafford not to chew on things?

Thanks Steve! I'll keep checking the website.

Oooh, do you? Can you divulge some information about your distance learning packages? I was also going to ask you - would you recommend any of the videos on the Leerburg site? The one on building drive & focus looked a little bit like what you do, to me. Wow, that's amazing. But how can a pup that young get interested in chasing a prey item? Their little legs don't even work properly yet.

Thanks K9force! That makes a lot of sense to me. So, the pup isn't allowed to socialise with the family at all until he is 14 months old? Or is he allowed to meet them, but they just can't fuss over him or play with him? Or can they cuddle and pet him, but only after the owner gives the release command? That makes sense. So the dog can't be scared or wary of strangers, but he just has no particular interest in them until his trainer tells him to get to work. So, the pup meets lots of strange dogs after the fear impact period, just not dogs that will play with it? Do you put the strange dog in a sit stay for example, then let the pup run up and meet it? Or let the pup see dogs from a distance, just don't let it approach them? Also, how young can you start drive building and drive training? I had the impression that it was only done with adult dogs, but from your reply it sounds like you do it with quite young pups too? Thanks for your time.

I agree with HR. How are you rewarding him? If the reward is motivational enough, then getting his focus will be much easier. If he performs well at dinner time, have you tried taking his dinner along to training and feeding it as treats when he performs? Or have you tried rewarding with a chase or tug toy?

I still find your comments helpful - you're at least as knowledgeable as I am about this kind of thing! So, the idea is that you socialise the heck out of your puppy until 12 weeks of age, introducing them to friendly dogs, friendly strangers, other animals, strange environments, new situations, etc. Then lock them up during the fear period (12 - 16 weeks), to prevent them having any bad experiences. Then neutralise them after that, to everything except you and your prey rewards?

Sorry, haven't read all of your answer yet, but just wanted to clarify - I am specifically talking about my own dog, who is selectively rank aggressive with particular adult dogs, but has always been a wussy pushover with young puppies. Not talking about DA dogs in general! Just to put your mind at rest. Have fun training!

That's a bit of a catch 22 then, for those of us with a dog aggressive (non neutralised!) dog who are intending to add a new pup to the family at some point, right? We would ideally want to initially accustom the old dog to the presence of the new pup while it is still young and has "puppy license". But if we intend to attempt to neutralise, we will not want to let the pup associate with the old dog? Those seem like two conflicting goals. So total neutralisation is desirable for a working dog, but might not actually be desirable for a pet dog, who is expected to be affectionate to his owners family and friends? (In my own case, my "non-doggy" mother has become quite attatched to my present dog, and I think it would probably break her heart if she wasn't allowed to cuddle and fuss over the next puppy!). Thanks, Erny and Myszka - I'm really enjoying reading your answers! It is a fascinating subject, and the more I learn about it the more questions I have about it. And on that subject... How about SAR dogs? I was at a SAR course in the weekend, and ended up talking to a civilian dog handler. She said that the SAR dogs were intensively socialised when young so that they loved finding strange people. She said that they used food and drive rewards as well, but also wanted to use pups that were really friendly and confident with people, and who found associating with strangers a positive experience. Is that a case where the pup would be socialised to a positive value with strangers, instead of neutralised to zero? Thanks again!

Sorry Lablover - your answer is appreciated too.

Hi again Erny, Myzska & K9force Can I ask one more question, please? I understand that neutralisation means that a dog will only seek drive satisfaction from its handler, and is neutral to other distractions. My question is, does that mean that the dog must not assign a positive value to its human and canine family? For example, if I were to introduce another pup into my household, could it assign a positive value to my other dog and my immediate family - but remain neutral to other dogs and people? Or would I have to be the "be all and end all" for this dog, and teach it to be neutral towards my family or other dog? Thanks.

Just out of interest... how many people? And how much would you charge them each? (PM me if you'd prefer!) And, have you been to NZ before? I'm just wondering if you have any past clients here who might like to attend another K9force seminar, if one were to happen in NZ at some point?

Thanks for your answers, K9force and Erny - that's a lot to think about! You mean find other dog people around here who would be happy attending a session taught by a trainer who uses e-collars and prong collars? Believe me, if I knew people like that, I'd already be training with them!

Thanks heaps Erny! You're an education. So, with an older dog that has a negative value for something, you can give them positive experiences to "neutralise" them. Sort of like desensitising a fearful dog to the presence of other dogs. But if an older dog has already assigned a positive value to something, you can't neutralise that? Is that sort of right? So while you are neutralising your dog, you're working your dog around other dogs who ignore him. And the "test" of whether you have achieved neutralisation is whether your dog seeks interaction with these other dogs or not. If he doesn't ever seek drive satisfaction from the other dog, he is neutralised to them. Is that kind of right? So when a dog is neutralised, then theoretically there is no opportunity for the dog to get "un-neutralised", since it is not seeking drive satisfaction anywhere else. Right? But... although we all try to control our dogs interactions, unpredicted things sometimes happen in life (at least for me!) If the dog one day did happen to get drive satisfaction from somewhere else as an adult, would that "un-neutralise" him? For example, a relative of mine once played with my dog with a squeaky toy without consulting me. I learned from that, and now lock my dog up while I'm not directly supervising him. But if my dog was neutralised, would the damage have already been done, just because on that one occassion he got a positive experience from something/someone else? Sorry, perhaps I'm being very dense here. What I would enjoy would be if Steve took a tour of NZ sometimes... how about it, K9force?

I have a couple of questions to ask, Erny, if you have the time & you don't mind. Firstly: this can only be done with a puppy, right? It sounds like once your dog already has assigned a positive value to things, then it is too late for neutralisation, so this wouldn't work with an adult dog. Secondly: what is the "point" of neutralisation? From what I can gather, the point of this is so that the dog will only assign positive value to things that the trainer can control - food, toys, the trainer himself - so that the dog only seeks drive satisfaction from things that the owner can manipulate. This presumably makes training easier, since you don't have to teach the dog to ignore distractions, since he is just not attracted to them. Whereas a "socialised" dog has assigned positive value to things, so he has to be taught to ignore distractions. Am I sort of on the right track? Thirdly: how can you tell when a dog has reached the "neutralisation mark" for various things. Do you test the pup somehow, then socialise it a little more if it is still "under the mark", then test again? Lastly: once a pup has been "neutralised", do you need to be careful the pup's whole life that the dog doesn't get a chance to assign a positive value to things? Or is there a critical period where a pup is neutralised, and then the dog will remain "neutralised" indefinately no matter what positive experiences the dog has later in life? (Hope that question made sense?) Thanks heaps!

Thanks!