Staranais

Yes, I've met and heard of quite a few pups that have been quite happy to toilet where they sleep, and even happy to sleep in the mess again afterwards - yuck! I've been told that in most cases, this kind of thing is caused by the pup not being kept in a clean environment when it is very young, so that it never actually has a chance to learn to keep itself clean. Hopefully your pup isn't one of those, Meriel!

Nice to see you back!

Thanks for the suggestion, Shoemonster. He already has a mini spring poll, which he thinks is just OK. He really is a retrieving fiend, and the reason I'm trying to wean him onto a tugtoyis that it will be a lot more practical (don't want to throw toys around for a reward in the middle of a busy obedience class, since he's quite DA). If the tugtoy doesn't end up working for us, I might give the flirt pole a try. He's also crazy about balloons, of all things, but they're a bit impractical too (hard to hide at the end of a track, for example).

Would your dog run the course as enthusiastically if you stopped rewarding her with tug, Vickie? Just wondering. As for me and my staffy, one of the major problems I have with him is that his very favourite things tend to be really antisocial things. Things like bullying or fighting certain other dogs, chasing and killing birds and small animals (not cats though). These things seem to really get him going, more than anything else, so I guess these things would be his "ultimate motivator" if only it was possible to use them in training! As it is, I'm trying to alter his reward hierachy by making tugtoys his ultimate motivator, so I can work him in prey drive around other dogs and small animals (currently muddling through a drive building programme with the help of K9 Force!) I'm hoping that the adrenaline rush of the drive reward will be a good substitute for the rush he gets from his more anti social activities. Not sure if that was what you were getting at?

Yes please! I'd love to know what the DVDs cover, and what you think about them.

And even the Koehler Method book makes it very clear that this "cure" should only be tried if the 12 week obedience programme didn't rectify the dog's behaviour. Christchurch city council seems to think this is a great first option for any dog with digging problems, so they're way behind even Koehler.

Yuck. What moron wrote those pages? The whole section is pretty shocking. I guess they didn't want to spend money hiring a professional dog trainer to write the page. ;)

Oh really? What do you do when your dog does something you don't want it to or ignores a known command then? Yes, this is a mystery to me to. Me three! Don't you mean you train with positive reinforcement and negative punishment, Bloss? Otherwise how do you discourage unwanted behaviour, like jumping up for example?

True, but it also sounds to me like the OP might be quite young, which might also explain some of her trouble training the dog? (S/he said that s/he had to ask her parents before enrolling in obedience class, so I'm assuming a child or maybe a teenager?)

Good luck & let us know how you go.

She's a pretty girl! What's her name? I'm no expert, but in my experience, dogs are more likely to protect themselves against other dogs, than to protect their owner against other dogs. :D It's mere speculation, but I think this pattern of aggression is more likely explained by one of the following: a) Her owner is (unknowingly) cueing the dog for aggression by displaying tense or worried body language, for example tightening the leash slightly when she sees other dogs approach, whereas you are more relaxed and the dog senses that; or b) The dog thinks that you will protect her from other dogs (unlike her owner), thus feels that she has no need to get aggressive towards them when she is walking with you; or c) The dog knows she can "get away" with misbehaviour when with her owner, but doesn't think she can get away with it when you are walking her, so she only acts out with her owner. JMO, perhaps other people here will have other ideas. If it's something that concerns you, it's probably a good idea to encourage the owner to take her to a good professional behaviourist to get the issue properly diagnosed and treated. Let us know how you go with the kayaking!

Poor boy, it looks like a nasty bite. :D If your dog was under effective control and the other dog was not, then personally I'd put most (or all of the blame) on the other owner. The only exception being if the other owner had been directed to take their dog offleash by an obedience instructor. Perhaps then, the club should share some of the blame. I'm just thinking that because most dog owners go to obedience class to learn to control their dog, i.e they obviously can't control their dog 100% yet. So I think it is the responsibility of a good instructor to help the owner judge whether it is a good idea to work offleash yet or not, since the owner might not have the experience or knowledge to make that call themself. After seeing several nasty incidents at dog school (some involving my own dog), I am a great believer in not having more than one or two dogs offleash at obedience class at any one time - not unless the class is very advanced. JMO.

That's an interesting thought - I never thought of that before. The "give me space" vests and ribbons are not just worn by aggressive dogs though, they are also be worn by fearful or nervous dogs (even ones who wouldn't normally bite, but just get upset or tense in the presence of other dogs). I wonder if that would make a difference? Any legal wizards here to share their advice about whether wearing a "give me space" ribbon is an admission of liability? I have to admit that my staff doesn't wear a "give me space" ribbon anymore anyway (he's a little less aggressive now - and we're also going to a different training school where the dogs are expected to show some semblance of control ). But it would be nice to know if wearing one was sensible or not. Great to see you too, Erny.

Wouldn't it depend on the exact situation though, as to who should pay? I'm just thinking of an incident I had at a training class once, when an out of control JRT dashed off the agility course he was supposed to be doing and jumped right at my dog aggressive stafford (who was sitting a good few metres away from the other dogs, on a very short leash, wearing a "give me space" ribbon!) If that JRT had been bitten for his trouble I wouldn't have felt it was my fault, or at least certainly not only my fault. I guess all I can suggest on the original topic is to talk to the club concerned, Sparty. Probably different clubs have slightly different policies anyway, so it would pay to check.

I'm planning on teaching this in summer, since I've just started to kayak, my dog loves to swim, and I hate leaving him at home. From experience, I've learned it's best to teach new skills like this in little baby steps, since the dog will probably find it quite intimidating. So I was planning to start on land with the kayak still, rewarding him (with a toy) for sitting in the correct place. Then probably getting someone to rock the kayak as he sat. Then going into shallow water, with someone holding the kayak still. Then actually going for a paddle! I'll report back in a few months with how we go. And don't forget, if you're planning on going into deep or fast flowing water, consider getting your dog a lifejacket! They're not that expensive, definately a good investment. Edited to add - yes, please post a picture! It has nothing to do with the training question, but I love SBT/staffy-X photos.

What are you interested in using? My suggestion would be 1) NILIF and TOT at home, 2) a prong collar and some professional lessons about walking on a loose leash around distractions, and 3) requiring your dog to give you a behaviour before he ever gets to greet or play with other dogs (even at obedience school), so he learns that pleasing you is the only way to access the doggy fun. But I'm not a professional trainer, and hopefully others here will have some other suggestions for you.

I think what confused people earlier was when you said you did basically the same thing as K9 Force - but then described methods that didn't seem very similar to what he describes when he posts. JMO. Anyway before I post, I'll just say that I'm not trying to stone you either - in fact I think it's nice to have different experiences and opinions being shared on the boards. ;) So just as an aside to what you said above, I think most people here who use (or try to use) prey drive do it because their dogs are very prey motivated, therefore making prey drive a good way to keep their attention - they find that working their dogs in prey drive is a very good way of controlling them. Think of it like this. My stafford is reasonably prey motivated. A few years ago when I first adopted him, if you released him in a field with ducks in it, he'd be gone like the wind! I found that I couldn't stop this behaviour using food rewards or by using praise/affection. So that's an example of prey drive working as a distraction. Other motivators, drives and rewards just couldn't compete when my stafford flipped into prey around those ducks. So now I'm trying to train him to accept that tugtoys are prey items too, and trying to convince him that they are just as exciting as ducks. The point being that if my staff wants to earn the tug toy as much as he wants to chase ducks, then when I control the toy I also control the dog. He'll do whatever I ask in order to earn it (even "calm" behaviours such as down or stay or 'leave the ducks alone!'), since his tugtoy is so motivating to him. That's prey drive being used as a way to gain and keep attention, even in the presence of other distractions. And I think that's basically what most people here are trying to do. Just my thoughts - and I'm by no means an expert.

This is a really interesting conversation. Australdi, I just wanted to say that I was also initially really confused when listening to these guys talk! I've learned a lot by doing so, though. Most importantly I have learned that having really high prey drive is a good thing in a dog, since it is a way to motivate your dog really effectively, no matter what you want him to do. I've learned that training in prey drive isn't just for protection training, in fact, you can use prey drive to motivate the dog to do just about anything. Using prey drive doesn't lead to an out of control dog, since you teach the dog that he needs to be in control of himself to earn the prey item. You can use prey drive to motivate quite "calm" behaviours such as heel, down, stay, in prey drive - not just active things like protecting or guarding or tracking. I've learned that you can squish prey drive out of a dog (a la Koehler) - but then how will you motivate him to obey you in the presence of prey drive type distractions (unless you're keen on dishing out really heavy handed corrections to squish that drive even further)? It's better that the dog learns that it's OK to express his drive around you and learns to see you as his best chance of earning prey drive satisfaction, so that he can make the decision to ignore those distractions by himself, to earn the prey reward that you can provide him. JMO - and I should add that I'm totally not an expert on this stuff, just a beginner student. Hopefully will be learning more soon via distance learning! But thought I'd just share what I'd learned so far, from these people and from my own research, in the hope it makes the discussion a little clearer for you. Am

I have the Booth Schutzhund book - it's really good, but had to order it from overseas. Hopefully you can find it locally, because the postage was nearly as expensive as the book was!

I can't imagine anyone being able to train a police dog without some form of correction. Even the "positively trained" NZ police dogs wear choke chains and/or prong collars when they're out working. And to be frank, if these dogs are the kind that will have their spirits broken from a collar correction, they're probably not suitable to be police dogs anyway. If these dogs can't deal with a gun shot or a collar correction, how on earth do people think they'll cope with being shot around in real life, travelling in noisy helicopters, and being yelled at, hit and kicked when apprehending angry criminals? Just wanted to say that you're the kind of positive trainer I respect! I agree that positive only/no correction training works wonderfully well for some dogs and some situations, and when working with a good trainer some dogs (like yours) just don't need corrections. But in my experience, some dogs do need to be corrected during the course of their training if they're not going to become dangerously unreliable. My stafford would be confined permanently onleash/incrate if I hadn't ever been allowed to correct him for dangerous behaviour as well as reward him for obedience. Instead, he runs offleash at the beach or the park almost daily, and has free run of our home since I can trust him not to maul the cats, and is welcomed when I visit my friends. I know which life he'd prefer, if he could have been given a choice.

I know one Delta instructor who uses a prong on one of her dogs at home, but can't recommend them at work. I won't give her name (she really wouldn't appreciate that on a public forum). But seriously, they must yank on their students' wrists really hard to make them think the prong collar hurts! When I tried a prong on my arm, it really didn't hurt at all. Uncomfortable, yes. Painful, no.

Well bred pitbulls are not good natural guard dogs. Please don't take the puppy.

I am so so sorry, Erny. I know you're grieving right now, and that nothing I say will make you feel much better, but I just wanted to remind you that Kal's legacy will live on whenever you go to training. All those dogs you help are only helped because Kal prompted you to learn about dogs, to learn about training and teaching and healing them. In this way Kal has made a difference to the lives of hundreds of other dogs and their families. Not many other pet dogs can say that, huh? I just hope I am as strong as you when the time comes to send my boy onwards. You will be in my thoughts.

You & Kal will be in my thoughts today, Erny. Kal has been so lucky to find an owner who cares for her as much as you do, and who is strong enough to let her go when she needs to go.

Would it be possible for you to participate in some funmatches, Pax, so that you can suprise him by rewarding (and correcting) him in the ring, when he least expects it? Only one point off for mouthing isn't too bad, I guess. I thought they'd probably take more off than that.