Staranais

Congratulations!

I think one of the reasons that dogs pick clicker up so quick is because the sound is so distinct. A clicker click sounds quite different to anything else a dog normally hears, they can't help but pay attention to it the first time they hear it. And since the first time the dogs hears it he gets a treat, he makes the association between click-treat really quickly and easily. Whereas with your voice, most people talk to their dogs all the time whether or not they're training, and the dog gets used to hearing (and ignoring) the sound of the voice. When the person starts conditioning their voice as a reward marker, they first have to overcome the fact that the dog has already learned that the sounds of their voice is normally irrelevant. So it generally takes longer to teach the dog to pay attention to the verbal marker than to the clicker marker. That's my theory anyway. I think that a verbal marker and a clicker are both good tools to use, they just have different strengths and different weaknesses. Like most training tools, one might suit a particular dog or situation better, and the other suit another dog or situation better.

I think everyone should at least give a clicker a go, even if they don't end up using it with their own dog. I don't generally use a clicker with my own SBT, since he pays good attention to my voice, and since I use so many different verbal signals with him (reward marker, NRM, keep going signal, release command, etc) it seems a bit silly to be using a clicker for one signal and my voice for all the other signals. But when I'm mucking around with other peoples' dogs, who haven't had so much experience learning or who simply don't know my voice so well, I find a clicker can work really well. It's such a distinctive sound that the dog can't help but pay attention to it.

but still interesting - perhaps we need our own thread about cats! Anyway, I taught them to target the end of a chopstick with their nose. Charged the clicker, then introduced the chopstick by putting it in front of their nose. Most cats will take a sniff at something new you wave in their faces, and that's when I captured the behaviour with a click. Took a few sessions before they got the connection (that they were making the click happen), but then I was able to up the criteria - I moved the chopstick so they had to walk to it, only clicked them sniffing the very end of the stick, etc. I was impressed how quickly they both learned when compared to my dog (but then again, I was also impressed at the speed of learning when I taught nose touch to my friend's pit-x, so it probably says more about my dog than about my cats). ;) Sounds like you taught it differently? I can't quite picture what you describe above.

Yup, believe me, I know. But I've helped teach a few things to other bull breeds and other terriers belonging to friends/at the pound, and believe me, this guy is particularly slow even for a bull breed. He doesn't lack focus or motivation, he's just very slow to learn, even when he's focused and trying hard. My dog wasn't socialised at all when young, wasn't taught a single thing until I got him at 5 years old, so I can't help thinking that these two things (lack of early stimulation and "slowness" at learning) are related? Like I said though, I have no proof at all that these things are connected, so I could be dead wrong. Just thought other people might have read about or experienced something similar. ;)

I'm very jealous of all you people who have dogs that take 5 - 10 reps to display understanding of a new exercise or concept! After years of patient training it still takes my own boy simply ages, probably dozens of short sessions, to display basic understanding of even the simplest new skill. (And no, it's not just me - I'm not the best trainer in the world by a long shot, but I'm not that bad. Even my cats picked up nose targetting way faster than my dog did!) Obviously, like with humans, some of a dog's speed of learning new things can be accounted for by the dog's own innate intelligence. But I also wonder if lack of stimulation when a dog is young can affect how quick a dog is at learning when it is mature? I can't help but wonder, if my boy had been socialised at all as a pup, if he had maybe even been taught a few simple commands or behaviours before I got him at 5 years old (even something as simple as house training), then perhaps he'd be "smarter" at learning now. Do you folks think there is maybe something akin to a critical period for "learning to learn" as a pup, like the critical socialisation period, and if no stimulation is recieved during this period then the dog will find it harder to learn as an adult? Just thinking aloud, really.

I guess my dog is probably even less sensitive than a banana, then! Luckily, he has many other redeeming qualities. ;)

I'm a little late with this suggestion, but if the dog likes to chase toys, then I was wondering if you'd tried the "two squeakies" or "two hoses" game? It is a good way to teach retrieve, with the dog returning the item to your hand, so might also help with your recall problem. (I don't have a copy of the rules for this game anywhere, but if you google "two squeakies" I'm sure they're out there on the WWW somewhere!)

Yes, I am ashamed to say that I regularly get frustrated and angry when training my dog. I am not naturally a very patient person, and my dog is definately not the brightest star in the sky. He is willing and has good focus, but it normally takes dozens of reps over many short training sessions before he really understands and remembers even the most basic new skill (and it's honestly not just not me being a rubbish trainer - I've trained and helped train other dogs before and they've all been much much quicker to pick up new skills). So when I'm trying to teach him a new behaviour it can sometimes be hard to remember that he is trying and that he isn't just being deliberately "stubborn" in order to wind me up. When I do get frustrated, I have learned to just immediately walk away from the session, and come back to it again later when we're both feeling more relaxed, and perhaps when I've thought of a different approach to teach the particular behaviour. Keeping on when I'm frustrated only makes him more confused, and me more upset, and really doesn't achieve anything positive. Luckily, my dear dog is about as sensitive and perceptive as a banana. He doesn't get upset if I let off steam by yelling "aargh" or stamping my feet, and it doesn't hurt his feelings if I suddenly abandon the training session to get a drink instead! :D

I swing Monster in the air when we're playing all the time, he really loves it. Haven't noticed any mouth or back injuries yet.

Wow, I can see how that would be frustrating! Can I ask how long have you had her for - and how old she is? What other training have you done with her? Is she uninterested in food treats or toys or petting at all times, or can you just not keep her focus when you're trying to teach recall? If she won't come in for dinner when called, how do you feed her? Do you take the meal to her outside?

Thanks Erny! It completely makes sense that you have to do a practical component on the course, I just thought they might let people do it locally instead of in Melbourne. Unfortunately flights to Aussie aren't really possible on my current (student) budget! Maybe after graduation?

Just wondering, but the NDTF distance course is only partially a distance course, right? I remember looking at it a while back, and apparently you had to come in to Melbourne a couple of times during the course to do a practical component. Has that changed?

Would you consider getting a private lesson with a professional trainer before you go to class? That would give you a head start on good training methods, and would also help you interpret your dog's behaviour around other dogs before you "throw her in the deep end" with a group class. If I lived in Sydney I'd book a personal consultation with Steve from K9force without hesitation, but if he has a long waiting list or you can't travel to him, then I'm sure there are lots of other good trainers in the city that DOL members could recommend to you. I personally wouldn't put your dog in any kind of correction collar unless you have an experienced instructor to help you use it properly. You need to make sure that the correction is timely and fair, and also make sure that she associates the correction with her own behaviour and not simply with the presence of the other dogs (or she could become nervous or aggressive when she sees strange dogs). Good luck with your training!

Wow, those turns are so fast and precise! I wish our heeling looked that flash. Thanks for posting that Myszka.

They don't know 'wrong' from 'right', or even understand those concepts. Can you back this up a bit? I maybe misreading what you've read and have gotten a bit confused. IMO dogs don't understand abstract concepts like something being morally wrong, or morally right. Unlike humans, they don't feel guilty for doing things that are morally wrong, or feel smug or righteous for doing things that are morally right. They do things because they find them rewarding or not rewarding (either physically or emotionally). Not because they think something is the morally right thing to do. Their brains just aren't capable of thinking that way. Your dog does what he does either because he is genetically programmed to do it (e.g eat, mate), or because he has learned that it will be rewarding (either emotionally rewarding, or physically rewarding). He sits because he has learned that sitting on command is somehow rewarding (results in praise, love, food, or escaping punishment), and he is genetically programmed to seek these rewards. If that seems overly cynical, remember humans are the same. We all are programmed to seek reward, whether this is emotional reward like companionship and affection, or physical reward like food or money. No matter how much you love your family, you wouln't obey them unconditionally without some form of reward or acknowledgement (even if the reward is a simple smile and hug, or social acceptance). Your dog is similar. Just my cynical 2 cents.

Trainers will often remind you not to treat your dog as human simply because quite often people get unfairly upset with their dogs, and blame them, if the dogs don't react like people. For example, people assume a cowering dog feels guilty for ripping up the carpet, when he is merely scared of his owner's aggressive body language. Or they get upset if a dog does something they think he should know is "wrong", although dogs don't understand that concept. It's important for us to bear in mind that dogs aren't just little furry people, since otherwise we have unfair expectations of their behaviour. Dogs certainly don't have the same cognitive ability as people. They don't reason as efficiently as we do, and they don't (IMO) have a moral conscience. They don't know 'wrong' from 'right', or even understand those concepts. In these ways, they are mentally different from humans. But IMO they do feel basic emotions, such as fear, anger, and affection.

\Wouldn't it be rather hard to regulate, though? For example, many trainers think that using ecollars or prong collars is an unacceptable way to train, but many other trainers use them successfully and (IMO) humanely. Some trainers obviously still think alpha rolling is fine, whereas others hate the idea. How would the governing body decide what was acceptable and what wasn't, when dog trainers can't agree themselves?

IMO yes, dogs can love. I think we humans are often quite hubristic in thinking that we are the only species that can experience these emotions. Dogs' brains are similar to our brains, and like us they are a social species that craves companionship. Anyone owning a dog can easily see that the dog can feel emotions such as fear, loneliness, anger, frustration, joy, contentment. Why wouldn't dogs also be able to feel love or affection towards their companions? I do think that dogs forget more quickly than we do, though (or perhaps they just aren't very good at thinking about things that aren't actually physically there). So when a dog loses a human or canine friend, he doesn't grieve as long as we humans grieve for our lost ones. They forget about the lost friend, and just get on with their lives. JMO.

Lol, the poor girl was first criticised for being too tough, now she's getting told off for being too positive! Not trying to insult anyone I promise, I just find it kind of funny. I still hope she sticks round.

Welcome to the forums! I hope you stick around, there are some great trainers here to learn from, and hopefully we'll also learn from you.

She won't get berated by me. I'm beginning to suspect that Andoria's origional post of what the trainer did to her dog (hit him with a door, pushed him down stairs so that he tumbled onto his back, alpha rolled him and got herself really badly bitten, etc) are all big exaggerations. So I am genuinely keen to hear the other side.

Yes, I'm keen to hear her side of the story.

Well, it's still nice to know that my amateur opinion has your seal of approval, seeing as you're much more qualified than I am! It's got to be reassuring to the OP.

Having said that - it's a good idea to teach your dog to allow himself to be restrained on his side or back (or any other position), simply in case you need to hold him like that at some point, e.g at the vet. If you teach this properly and gently, and your dog is otherwise well adjusted, he shouldn't bite you for doing that! But that's a lot different to the "alpha roll", where you're holding down an unwilling dog in order to prove your "dominance" over him.