Staranais

I know hardly anything about retrieving trials, so you'll probably get much better advice from everyone else on this thread. But reading your post, I just wondered why you couldn't just put your hand lower and lower to the ground until she takes it? I mean, you say she will take it from your hand in the air, but not pick it up from the ground. So couldn't you get her to take it from your hand, only hold your hand lower and lower, until your hand is resting on the ground, then slowly take your hand away? If you did it slowly enough, going back a step whenever she mucked up, then I don't see how that couldn't work eventually? Although since I don't know much about retrieving, there could be something there I'm missing. If she won't work for food, why not try getting her to miss dinner before training? Or if you feed her meals at training sessions, i.e you make food only available at training sessions, I'm sure she'll get more interested in training sessions within a day or two! If she won't work for toys, have you tried drive building with her to raise the value she puts on her toys?

Questions for Anissa, if that's OK. 1) How do you train without punishment? Things like ignoring a dog, telling him "no" or "uh-uh", refusing to let him have a toy, putting him in time out, are all punishment. I can't see how one could train a dog without doing anything like this? Or do you mean that you use some types of punishment but not others, and if so, could you tell us how you decided which types of punishment are OK with you and which aren't? 2) How would you go about training a dog to stop performing a very rewarding but completely unacceptable behaviour (e.g something like stock chasing, which many dogs find extremely rewarding, more rewarding than anything you could possibly provide)? I'm asking this one since I've asked several "positive only" clicker trainers this question and not got a satisfactory response (most just said "just keep the dog on leash", but keeping a dog on leash forever seemed both silly and cruel to me), so I'd be interested in hearing more about your methods. Thanks!

Maybe it's a staffy thing? I've been trying to teach my dog stand for months and months, and he simply doesn't get it. If you ask him to stand, his forehead will wrinkle in intense concentration, and perhaps 50% of the time he'll slowly give you a stand. The other 50% of the time, he'll give you a down, a sit, or simply keep staring at you in complete puzzlement. I've tried placing him (a couple of different ways), luring with a clicker, and capturing it with the clicker. Nothing seems to quite penetrate that thick staffy skull of his. I've finally resigned myself to placing him in a stand, then asking him to stay. He understands that far better, and I'm pretty sure it's legal for competition. And since I say "stand" every time I place him, I'm hoping that he'll sort of absorb the concept slowly by himself? So far we're up to a 20 second stand stay like this, with no distance or distraction added. Any suggestions welcome!

Oh yes, there's really nothing worse than someone assuming that your aggressive dog wants to socialise, without having the courtesy to ask you first. I met one lady at class who was rude enough to tell me that it was no wonder my dog was aggressive, because I wouldn't let him socialise with all the other dogs! Of course, if her dog had been chomped by mine, you know who'd be to blame then... It's great isn't it? :D Sounds like you've done a lot of work with your dog and should be really proud of yourself. In my experience it can be absolutely frustrating and heartbreaking trying to train an aggressive dog, but on the other hand you often learn way more than you would from training a dog without major issues. And the buzz you feel when you earn a title with a "reactive" dog, even a very minor one like CGC, has to be felt to be believed! Silver linings, and all that.

We were the opposite to you, Pixie - my dog found walking backwards in front of me very very tricky, but the minute I put him in heel position beside a wall he clicked onto what I was asking. Our only problem is that when you remove the wall, he's not very good at backing straight back - we can only do a few steps before he's either under my feet or way too wide.

This is a really topical topic for me, since I've started training this recently too! At the moment we're concentrating on practicing him going out, picking up the cloth, and bringing it back without mouthing or mauling or dropping it. I haven't even introduced more than one cloth yet, since I want to him to really understand the idea of carrying a cloth first. Yes, my dog's a pretty slow learner. I'd be interested in hearing how you taught this to your dog? How did you go about introducing the other cloths?

I prefer good quality instruction over a "friendly" club. A good instructor who is well versed in all sorts of different training techniques and methods (instead of having one "pet" method or tool) is worth their weight in gold, IMO. But most important to me is a safe, well controlled atmosphere. Since my dog is dog aggressive, we simply can't attend a class where dogs are uncontrolled or owners are encouraged to let their dogs socialise all the time, no matter how good the instructor may be.

Well said, Bloss344! I think it's sometimes hard for people who only own sociable dogs to understand quite how stressful it can be to have an aggressive or reactive dog. It's bad enough having to have eyes in the back of your head at obedience club in case some uncontrolled dog escapes the leash, without having to worry about well meaning people deciding to let their onleash dogs "socialise" with yours without asking. I think you're quite correct that people often mistakenly think that if your dog isn't acting like a loony, he can't be aggressive. I have lost track of the number of well meaning people who have told me that I am being "over protective" since my dog "looks OK" around other dogs. They don't seem to believe me that my dog is only acting politely because he knows I expect him to completely ignore the other dogs - if another dog gets close enough that he simply can't ignore it, then watch out! His obedience skills still don't mean that he's necessarily going to be sociable or safe when other dogs get in his face. Of course, I think a lot of these issues can be avoided by choosing a good club. Some instructors and clubs are very considerate when it comes to creating an atmosphere of respect and safety for non-social dogs and their owners. Whereas other clubs seem to wish that we'd just disappear and stop disrupting the class with our "bad dogs". Thanks for the chance to rant! :D

They're a limited slip collar, made of interlocking metal links, with blunt teeth on the inside. Also called a pinch collar. When you pop the leash, the collar contracts somewhat, and the blunt teeth grip the dog's neck, causing discomfort (not pain unless you pop way too hard). Unlike a choke chain, it doesn't cut off the dog's air supply, and can't strangle him. Prongs are a particularly good collar for huge dogs (which could otherwise be hard to safely control), dogs with throat problems (they won't damage themselves by pulling on the collar) and dogs that are insensitive to pain (since you'd have to jerk them dangerously hard on a choke chain to get the same response as a light pop on a prong collar). Edited to add: Rom beat me!

Perhaps you're right, just wanted to add that my staffy sometimes screams with pure excitement. Nothing to do with rebellion, he's just so psyched up that he can't control himself, and makes the strangest yodelling whines. Apparently it's not that uncommon with staffies, they can be a fairly vocal breed.

I wasn't impressed by what I've heard of bark busters either. Since it is a franchise, apparently some trainers are OK, but others are terrible. I wouldn't risk it myself. While you're looking for a good trainer to work with you and your dog, you might want to consider starting your dog on NILIF (aka Nothing in Life is Free - search or google) and/or Triangle of Temptation (thread at the top of this board). These programmes both help your dog to understand that you are the leader, which will make him feel calmer and more relaxed, and more receptive to training You might also want to investigate clicker training (again, search or google!) This is a type of positive training which is quite easy to pick up, and which won't hurt your dog if you make a few mistakes at first. As for being a trainer, IMO you should first train your own dog (it's valuable experience and it's free, plus you'll find out if you enjoy dog training before enrolling in an expensive course). If you still want to be a trainer, then consider enrolling in a dog trainers course with NDFT, as the others have suggested.

Yes, I've had that problem! The only difference is my staffy would fling himself at other dogs with the intention of trying to fight, bully or intimidate them instead of the intention of playing nicely. What I did was: 1) Switched to more compelling rewards (in our case, toys are much more compelling than food. K9 Force's training in drive protocol is a good one for learning to use toys effectively. Or if your dogs are chow hounds, don't feed them before obedience training, and bring really super food treats with you.) 2) Did not ever let him interact with other dogs during class, even between exercises (taught him that class time was for working, not for playing.) 3) Did not ever take him closer to other dogs than he could handle (preferably now, I leave him in the car or tied up a distance away until it's actually time to work him, so he doesn't get bored and go looking for mischief with the other dogs. During exercises, we don't work near other dogs unless we are trying to proof the exercise. If he can't easily focus on me, displaying relaxed body language, then I figure we're way too close to the other dogs.) 4) Eventually, proofing all of his obedience exercises by correcting him (I don't suggest you give that a whirl except under the guidance of your instructor, I'd hate to see that backfire on you somehow, by confusing your dog or making him dog aggressive or something. But adding corrections really helped us, after doing a lot of positive groundwork.) You mileage may vary, but this worked pretty well for us. Though we're definately not perfect yet he's a lot better than he was.

I don't think you're crazy, and I'm not going to flame. Having said that, though, I do have to say that most people here believe in all the things you do (which reading between the lines of your post would seem to include analysing dog behaviour, presumably using plenty of reward, instilling good pack structure using protocols including "Amichien" - am I right?). The difference is that many people here also use correction collars when appropriate or helpful. So I guess I just wanted to point out that it's not necessarily a case of people using one or the other. Most people here do try to be strong leaders, and do use a lot of reward. It's just that sometimes, for some dogs, these things aren't enough by themselves. I'd love it if I could get my dog to obey me 100% just because he respects me (and believe me, he does respect me), but unfortunately that just ain't going to happen. And I imagine many other dogs would be similar - particularly dogs that are high drive, or very cocky, or very aggressive. Not all dogs respond well to all training methods or techniques. I also have to say that I personally don't really understand the school of thought that says that physical punishment is somehow "worse" than things like denying the dog attention, denying him rewards, denying him food or affection, etc. Both types of punishment are still punishment, and both types can be frustrating or upsetting to the dog if insensitively used. I mean, that's why they work as punishment. If ignoring your dog didn't make him upset, then it wouldn't work as punishment. If it's OK to use one type of punishment, then why is it not OK to use the other, as long as both types are carefully and humanely used? (In fact, I personally believe that physical punishment can sometimes be more humane than simply denying a dog stuff, since in some cases prompt physical corrections can be easier for dogs to understand, reducing the potential for stress, and creating an opportunity to reward the correct behaviour. But that's neither here nor there). Just my 2 cents. I guess it all comes down to, I don't mind what tools or methods anyone uses to train their dog, as long as the training isn't physically or mentally abusive to the dog. And I'd like people to give me the same courtesy when I go to train my dog. As long as he's looking happy and obedient (which he is), don't try to outlaw the methods or tools that I'm using. I just wanted to edit this to add - I'm not sure what sort of experience you have working with really tough dogs, Willow, I couldn't work that out from your post. But after thinking, I just wanted to add that even if pet owners are banned from using prong collars or other correction tools, I personally find it really terrible that professional trainers aren't allowed to do so in some states. People who end up with problem dogs on their hands often need to go to a professional for help, and I believe that for the sake of the dogs, a professional trainer must have all the available tools at their disposal. Even if 99% of dogs can be cured with leadership and a positive-only regime, professional trainers need access to the means to help the other 1% of troubled animals that end up in their clinic. As someone who has been told by more than one positive-only trainer that my dog couldn't be saved and should be kept away from other dogs for life, only to see a vast improvement after I started using toy rewards with corrections, I hate the idea that trainers could be prevented from rehabilitating dogs like mine by being banned from using certain tools. So although I do respect your decision not to use any correction collars on the dogs you train, I would encourage you to think about supporting legislation that allowed well qualified professional trainers to use these tools with the permission of a veterinarian. JMO.

I've always liked the idea of teaching my dog to pull me on a skateboard. It seems like it would be great exercise for the dog. I can't teach it to my current dog as he's too old to go running on concrete, but I'll definately try it out when my next dog is old enough. I'm not sure I'd try walking a dog on rollerblades, though. What would you do if the dog ever decided to bolt? You'd end up on your behind, or else pulled into the traffic. At least with a skateboard you can jump off it. I'm a terrible blader though, so perhaps if you're any good it's not as dangerous as I'm thinking.

I have also observed that head collars and check chains tend to be abused more than prong collars, but have a different theory as to why this happens! At least around here, any fool can go to any pet store or supermarket and pick up a head collar or check chain over the counter. Choke chains and head collars are cheap, easily available, and you don't have to jump through any hoops to get them. So although some very knowledgeable people use these two tools, there are also a lot of ignorant people who buy them too, with no idea how to safely and humanely use them. On the other hand, in NZ, prong collars aren't easily available. Only people who are interested in dog training tend to know what a prong is, let alone go to the trouble of ordering one from overseas. Hence the people you see using prongs tend to have at least some idea what they are doing, and be less likely to abuse a dog through sheer laziness or ignorance. That's my theory anyway.

What a weird problem! On the bright side, if your dog's nose is really that sensitive, he might be a great candidate for tracking. When reading your post I wondered if your dog is acting scared or tense when he does this, or whether he look perfectly relaxed but just does not want to sit there for some reason. Because if it's the second, I wonder if his heel just needs to be proofed futher (by whatever method you normally use to proof an exercise)?

You're welcome & good luck.

I do, just logged in to our university website and had a look at several databases, but couldn't find any studies mentioning prong collars on dogs. Several articles about headcollars, and a few about ecollars, but none about prongs. Sorry. The bright side of that, I guess, is that as far as I can find there are no studies out there showing that prongs cause injuries or distress. So the people wanting to ban prong collars will have no scientific evidence to show that they are harmful. But I was wondering, does anyone here have a copy of Steven Lindsay's 3 big books? I remember that he talks about prongs at one point, and his books contain references, so perhaps some papers on prongs are listed in the index there? Another useful thing to do might be to find out if any Australian police departments use prong collars to train their dogs. Pointing out in the submission that the police use prong collars to train their dogs, would surely increase the 'respectability' of the prong collar in the minds of the decision panel?

Perhaps you could have used the agility as a motivator for the obedience, Snoopy? e.g dog does 5 heeling steps well and then gets sent to do a few jumps, dog does a good recall then gets sent through a tunnel, etc. When he learned that doing obedience "earnt" him a chance to do agility, then perhaps his enthusiasm for the obedience exercise eventually would have increased as well? But I agree there are probably some rare dogs that just aren't overly motivated by food, toys, games, affection, or praise, and therefore won't find doing obedience particularly exciting, no matter what the owner does. They must be really frustrating to own and train!

When someone says their dog "hates" obedience, in my experience that normally means that either the handler hates obedience (and the dog picks up on this feeling) or else that the handler does not reward the dog enough, or lets the training sessions drag on for far too long (have you ever seen a novice obedience class "heeling" their dogs around and around for half an hour at a time? No wonder those dogs (and trainers) learn to hate obedience!) In my experience if the handler stays upbeat and enthusiastic, with short sessions & regular rewards, the dog rarely learns to "hate" obedience.

Aw, is my quota up already? Perhaps it depends what competitions you're doing? CD over here has a 5 min out of sight down stay, UD is a 10 min out of sight down. Would you expect the dog to do those stays in drive? They just seem quite a long time for the dog to stay focused. I think so - you're saying for short stays (or stays where you want the dog to do something energetic afterwards) use a drive command so the dog stays focused, long stays (or stays where the dog isn't going to be doing drive work immediately after) you would use a non-drive command with a food or pack reward. Is that right? Thanks heaps!

A lot of people on this forum speak highly of the National Dog Trainers Federation course. Several forum members have done this course & also work as trainers, so hopefully they can give you some advice & more details.

Can I please ask another question about training in drive, Steve? If you're wanting to teach your dog to do something passive, like a very long down stay, is it better (easier or more reliable) to do this in drive, or to teach it another way? I'm just asking since dogs working in drive are so focused and intense, and I was wondering if it was reasonable to ask a dog maintain that level of focus on the prey item for that length of time (for example to stay in drive for a 30 min out of sight down stay). Or would it be better to teach a stay another way, eg with food then corrections, so that the dog can just relax while in the stay? Most of the dogs I see doing long down stays in competitions seem to be nearly asleep on the stays, they all seem so relaxed. Thanks, and sorry if that's a daft question!

I also appreciate clubs that let you use both reward and punishment. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that most clubs now encourage the use of food and clickers and toys instead of corrections, especially when the dog is in the "teaching" phase of training. But I don't like it when clubs go too far the other way and ban members from using any form of overt punishment (I say overt as 'haltis' often seem to slip under the radar ). IMO different dogs respond best to different training methods. I'd rather see a club encourage students to use corrections and correction collars safely, judiciously and fairly, than ban them all together and keep students plugging away with a clicker and halti even when that is clearly not working for their dog. All that happens then is that the student gets discouraged and quits, and the dog is still not reliably trained. JMO.

Thanks Leopuppy!