Staranais

Your dog already has T cells of many types in the system before it is vaccinated. It develops Memory B and Memory T cells as a result of the vaccination. Both are needed for an effective secondary immune response to most viruses. Yes, maternal antibodies will block the puppy's immune system from responding to the vaccine antigen. Even the newer high titre vaccines that claim to "break through" maternal antibody still seem to need the antibodies to wane a little bit before they are effective, from what I have seen. The one available here recommends vaccination at 12 and 9 weeks if there is any chance the pups will get infected with parvovirus: at 12 weeks to ensure the pups seroconvert, and at 9 weeks just in case they lose maternal antibody protection sooner. Vaccinating at 6 weeks won't do much for most pups, since most will have a far too high level of maternal antibody present, and they neither need the vaccine nor can repond to it.

Sheridan, a low titre doesn't necessarily equal lack of immunity, it just means you can no longer prove that your dog is immune. Dogs can still be immune without a high level of circulating antibody. Protective level of antibody present in the titre test = dog is immune. No serum antibody or lower than protective level = dog may or may not be immune. 'Doesn't necessarily'. 'Can no longer prove.' 'Dog may or may not be immune.' I think you just proved the vet's point. Sorry, you said that the vet found that the dogs had lost their immunity. I was just pointing out that you can't actually tell that with a titre test (which I presume was what the vet was using?) With a titre test, all you can tell is that the dog MAY have lost its immunity. The only way I know to show a dog has definately lost immunity is to infect it with the virus, which I hope the vet wasn't doing.

Sheridan, a low titre doesn't necessarily equal lack of immunity, it just means you can no longer prove that your dog is immune. Dogs can still be immune without a high level of circulating antibody. Protective level of antibody present in the titre test = dog is immune. No serum antibody or lower than protective level = dog may or may not be immune. Nina, I've never been in that position, but it seems to me that you have three options: 1) Vaccinate the dog as if it has never received any vaccines before 2) Titre test the dog and vaccinate it only if it doesn't have a protective level of antibody already 3) Don't vaccinate and hope for the best If it were my dog, I'd go for the titre testing since I think it's the best compromise between making sure your dog has been vaccinated while hopefully avoiding over-vaccinating, or if I couldn't titre test for some reason then I'd go for option one and vaccinate from scratch to ensure the dog has been vaccinated. Other people will doubtless have other opinions, though.

Oh I'm sorry, I missed that your vet recommended against anaesthesia for a while. :D I wonder if they could clean teeth under a sedative, and if that would be safer for him?

I saw an article once where a woman was using marker training to teach the dog to rock back on the A-frame 2o2o, so that the rewarded position required the dog's weight to be over his back legs not his front legs. Then backchaining the rest of the A-frame. Not sure where I saw it sorry, so maybe not much use. :D I've heard that performing a 2o2o contact on the A-frame can really jar and stress a dog's elbows, especially a big fast dog, but not sure if that's true or just a bit of an urbal myth. Would be interested in finding out if anyone else knows.

That was great of you to suggest it (and of them to write it!) :D Hopefully more kennels will start to play ball as the new protocols become more widely accepted. Cashew, if you really don't want to vaccinate again but have to use a kennel, you should look into whether your kennel accepts a titre test as proof of immunity (IMO they should, but some are a bit old fashioned about it). I don't know anything about titreing for Bortedella, but I do know that there's a good chance your dog will still show a protective serum Ab titre against CPV, CDV, CPIV, and CAV since you only vaccinated for those a year or two ago. If your kennel is willing to accept a titre, then perhaps someone local can advise you on where to go & what it would cost?

Is it likely that a boarding kennel/dog club will accept this? Some I've seen have been seriously stuck in their ways... the kennel I now choose to use seems a little more flexible (at least they accept a C3 on my own risk) Depends on your club or kennel. As a private organisation or business they can choose to accept who they like, I suppose, but personally I'd leave one that wouldn't. :D If even the manufacturer admits that a particular vaccine is good for 3 years, who are the club or kennel committee to say that dogs need the vaccine more frequently? Insisting that vaccines are given annually regardless of what the manufacturer recommends is just an obsolete tradition, and it's not good for the dogs. Kennels and dogsport organisations should be accepting manufacturer recommendation for vaccine duration, as well as titre results, IMO.

Yes, that is true, I think it is a good protocol. Current thinking on companion animal vaccination is that for the best population-wide protection, we need more people vaccinating their pets, but it's OK if they're each doing it less often. Yes, a lot of us vets and wannabe vets do. Otherwise I'd be investing my 5 years and $50,000 getting qualified in something far more lucrative than veterinary science, believe me! Pity there are some bad apples out there, but it happens in every profession I'm afraid.

I don't think giving a probiotic would make the antibiotic less effective, but the antibiotic might kill the probiotic bugs, just meaning you're wasting your money if you give probiotics before the antibiotics are finished?

Erny is right. No vaccination protocol can guarantee 100% protection against any disease. Some pups are non-responders. Some pups get infected with the virus between the time they're vaccinated and the time that their immune response to the vaccine "kicks in". Some pups don't respond to vaccines due to maternal antibody protection, and no, you can't 100% predict when maternal antibody protection will wane in a pup since the antibodies are gained from the colostrum and persist in the body for many weeks. Antibodies from the milk just protect the gut. All vaccination does is improve your odds dramatically. There's no guarantee of protection. Yeah, we're all just in it for the money, we don't care about the animals at all. I hope you weren't rude enough to say this to Dr Dodds...

Not sure, but I have read somewhere that longterm oral use of Neem oil can damage the liver. Not sure if that's true or not, but I'd tread carefully, were I you. Natural doesn't always mean safe! If you don't get results for Sarge with the bones, I'd recommend you consider getting his teeth professionally cleaned by a good vet, and then try to keep them clean by brushing/feeding bones/chew toys. I know it's not nice (for your dog or your wallet!) to put a dog under anaesthesia or sedation unnecessarily, but I think it can sometimes be worth it in order to give bad teeth a really thorough good clean and start your dental maintenance with a "blank slate". It's easier to keep clean teeth clean with bones, chews etc than to get tartar off after it's already accumulated. JMO.

There should be no need to vaccinate a dog yearly for parvo, distemper & hepatitis after his initial set of puppy shots. Vets used to recommend annual boosters, but they're now regarded as unnecessary by almost every up-to-date vet. Ask your vet to get you a core vaccine that is licensed to be given every 2 or 3 years - there's several on the market. You can ask to keep the packet insert so you can show dogsport clubs or boarding kennels that you're following the manufacturer's protocol if they give you grief about not vaccinating yearly. Will save you money, and nicer for your pup.

I'd also be worried about the lack of calcium here. There will be a little bit in the fish (if you feed with bones), and a very little bit in the cheese, but in the long term it would be good if you could add some more calcium to the diet from a source such as bone or egg shell. No idea about the cause of the patches, however I do recall that on the few occasions that my old staffy boy ran through wandering jew, his (naked) belly skin itched and peeled, and once the rash had settled the skin was lighter. It did darken again over a period of a few months. Perhaps you're seeing a similar thing following skin peeling from dryness/staph infection?

I wouldn't agree with the first vet that she only needs her teeth cleaned when it gets "really bad". If you can't keep her teeth clean by brushing them yourself, by giving chew toys, or with bones in her diet, then I'd recommend getting her teeth scaled reasonably regularly. Ignoring periodontal disease until it's "really bad" doesn't necessarily save you money in the long term. Build up of tartar on teeth is bad news for dogs, it not only leads to tooth loss but there's also good evidence that the bacteria growing on the tartar can predispose dogs to problems with their internal organs. Not saying you have to go to the second vet, just saying that IMO the first vet is underestimating the seriousness of the problem. Maybe get a third opinion?

Yes, that's been my experience too. Most of the labs I see round here seem to be really out of shape and overweight, it's a pity since a trim lab is a nice enough looking dog, I just rarely see them that way. Off topic, but this whole thread reminds me of an occasion a few years back when I was at obedience training with my SBT, waiting for our class to start, and a nice looking old lady with a miniature poodle gave me a conspiring look and whispered that my dog looked like a nice friendly dog but wasn't he ugly? She seemed quite oblivious that I might find her comment offensive. Though I suspect she would have been less impressed had I said the same thing about her little poodle! I guess we all find different things attractive.

I don't think she sounded pretentious at all.

I've seen people with dogs attached to the front of bikes before, to the upright bit above the front wheel/under the handlebars. I guess with a bike you can pedal to help the dog on the hills, or brake if you need to. It might be relatively easy to DIY, if you've got an old mountain bike.

Not to the best of my knowledge - only letting the dog interact with the owner sounds like the opposite of socialisation to me, definitely not something I'd do with a pup. I think there's nothing wrong with crating for an hour or two before training the dog though, to enhance drive to work. Sounds more like the "Ruff Love" program to me?

He is gorgeous!

I don't see heightened arousal as a goal of socialisation Huski. Tolerance and perhaps enjoyment, but not heightened excitement. I don't think it's ever a goal of conventional socialisation, but I've often seen it as a result. Lots of well meaning pup owners seem to actively encourage the pup to ignore them in public in favour of engaging with other strangers and dogs, then get surprised when they eventually have to do ooodles of training to remedy the fact that their dog has been conditioned to find other things more exciting than they are. I like your "controlled socialisation" term.

If the vet thinks it's important for her to have rice with the chicken (rather than just suggesting it to save you money!), you could perhaps blend them together in a food processor so she can't pick bits out? I've found that microwaving food slightly to warm it up (just to body temperature) can also tempt sick animals to eat - might be worth a try, if you haven't already given it a go? I hope it all works out for you and Chelsea.

Oooh crazy double posts, sorry.

Yes, it sounds like we're using different words for very similar things. Edited to add: I understand that other people might really enjoy seeing their dogs play with other dogs, and might think that the fun of letting their dogs play with other dogs is worth the extra work to get a great recall away from them. I don't feel that way, but each to their own, we all have dogs for different reasons. Perhaps my opinion is colored by having such a hard time getting a reliable recall on my last dog, I inherited him with a very strong desire to run off towards other dogs, and it took a lot of work to create a reinforcer that at all competed with other dogs in his mind (in his case this was a safety issue, since he didn't always want to get the other dogs for very nice reasons!) I don't want to go through something similar again if I can help it - I'd rather spend all that training energy on more fun things for us. JMO.

Yes, it sounds like we're using different words for very similar things.

Yes please, photos! Where did you get him from, Tilly?