Erny

Blacklabrador - I get you

Blacklabrador - I hope that doesn't mean you'd turn a blind eye to the possibility of dietary deficiency. I agree - with the majority of dogs I'm in contact with who exhibit the behaviour, its a learned behaviour, often stemming initially from boredom. (Sometimes, of course, there's learned behaviour stemming from natural exploratory tendancies.) However, because my mind is open to the possibility of dietary deficiency, I've been able to solve this behavioural 'problem' in a number of canines by recommending a change in diet. The dogs'/pups' short and longterm welfare has been better off for the dietary modification too.

I hope some of the readers have not misunderstood me - I don't mean that if the dog goes for poo that there is a dietary deficiency .... I mean that if a dog goes for poo, its diet is the first place I investigate to make sure it's not a dietary deficiency. Maybe that's not what your comments are driving at, but I'm sorry if my message has not been clear and if there's been any misunderstanding.

Just realised you already said it was your dog's own poo .... doh!! Read properly, Erny!!!

t-time - thanks for passing on the news of success. It always helps to know what things worked for who. Please remind me - was your dog eating his own poo, or that of other animals (I think you said others ... )

Ditto what Haven said!

Thanks t-time! I looked up the thread you referred to. It pretty much covers the info I put out there. I agree with Ishtar's reference to enzymes. The dog has digestive enzymes which are generally triggered by enzymes in the ingested food. For example vegetables. But when we feed vegies, it is better to put them (raw) through a blender, or at least finely grate them. This breaks down the vegies and allows the dogs to digest the nutrients from them more easily than if we didn't. You can try feeding your dog pineapple (if it's eating its own stool) or, if eating other animal's stool (eg your cat) you feed the pineapple to the cat. It has been thought that the presence of processed pineapple in the faeces renders the faeces unattractive therefore deterring the dog from ingesting the stools. (Another school of thought is that "Bromelain", an enzyme found in pineapples and capable of digesting protein might actually aid your dog's protein absorption and if this was previously lacking then perhaps that's why your dog is seeking to eat faeces. But this would kill the theory in the preceding paragraph.) Apparently, feeding a food additive (eg. MSG - Monosodium Glutamate has achieved some (limited) success. As I understand it, the presence of such a substance renders the faeces distasteful. (So, if it's your cat's faeces the dog is eating, you'd need to feed these additives to your cat.) What I'm not sure of and am hesitant about with the pineapple and food additives idea, is what the effect - long term or short - these substances might have on your dog's and/or cat's digestive system (and, cats being cats, wondering if they'd be fussy enough to refuse to eat it if it was in their food anyway) and if anyone were looking to try these methods I'd suggest they research further in this regard beforehand. Finally, my thought on the subject is that, provided there is no medical related cause for the behaviour and the ingestion of the faeces is not causing your dog any harm (eg. picking up worms/parasites from other animals' faeces), eating faeces (their own or others) in moderation isn't necessarily abnormal so you might want to think about merely accepting the behaviour ...... and invest in some doggy mouth freshening tooth past as well!!!!

Sorry - I didn't mean to mislead anyone by my one syllable answer (and if you knew me and how much I talk, one syllable answers from me are rare and to be treasured! ) Anyway, Nutritionist I'm not, but I feel a need to explain that, if I had a dog that was into (in this case) cat poo, I'd probably first investigate my dog's diet to determine that it was nutritionally balanced, particularly regards protein, given that's what cat poo is high in. Provided I'd ruled out any nutritional deficiency or other medical reason why my dog might be seeking out the faeces of other animals, was appropriately "de-wormed" and looked happy and healthy, then I wouldn't be too concerned about the behaviour. Eating other animal's faeces can also have come about by reasons such as boredom; attention seeking attempt; a learnt behaviour etc. (and he might just simply like it!) However, I agree with "anne's" post - I don't like the idea of my dog being able to eat the cat litter and that this should be kept out of the way of your dog. In her book "Clinical Behavioural Medicine for Small Animals" Karen Overall writes: "Most dogs that are coprophagic (stool eating) are not fed a diet that is deficient in essential nutrients or vitamins, nor do they have a pancreatic enzyme disorder. ... No one has examined the role that scent and texture play in coprophagia, but there are numerous anecdotal reports of dogs actively seeking cat, rabbit, deer, and horse faeces, and frozen canine faeces. These substances are appealing to some extent to most dogs, suggesting that there might be evolutionary factors associated with coprophagia that are underappreciated. Dogs, even extant wolves, have a well-documented history of scavenging for food, and coprophagia may be a behaviour that is a remnat of that history. ... At some level many coprophagic behaviours involve play, sampling, and learning." I don't agree with "t-time's" (apt name for this topic, don't you think? ) statement that "if a dog eats its own poo, it's normal." Although I acknowledge, t-time, that you were actually trying to re-call something you'd read. Dogs who eat their own faeces could be symptomatic of a number of things, including: 1. Boredom 2. Dietary imbalance 3. Bad housetraining methods (eg. People who punish the dog for soiling in the house ... dog learns he gets in trouble when 3 factors come together. ie the human, the dog and the poo. So dog eats poo to get rid of the "evidence" or 3rd factor ) 4. Malabsorption problem. (feeding 2 meals a day instead of all in one hit can help here.) 5. Attention seeking attempts. 6. Learnt behaviour (inadvertently reinforced) As for "frozen canine faeces" (in Karen Overall's text above) .... don't think I'll visit her refridgerator!

I know this thread subject has a tendancy to waver from the poster's original subject, but I'm compelled to mention that I've met, in recent times, a golden cocker boarding at the kennels I train at. This cocker is generally a friendly little chap and is happy amongst humans and other dogs alike. We took him out for his playtime fun where he gets the opportunity to run around, play ball, socialise with other suitable dogs etc. He had a great time. But when it was time to come back in, there was no way he was going to allow us to come anywhere near his 'girls'. His aggression and stress level was extreme, salivating, snarling, growling, lunging, snapping. He did bite one of the kennel staff when she went to put a lead on one of the other dogs .... and this was on the other side of their huge play yard, so he really went out of his way to guard his valuable resource/possession. I've heard this guy's behaviour referred to as rage syndrome, but I'm not sure. I think more testing and investigation would need to have been done to establish this. But, regardless of what the behaviour is labelled, it was really ugly. I must admit, I've not seen any other dog (of any breed - cocker or otherwise) aggressively guard its resource/s at such a low threshold (in this case, distance).

Protein.

Before I go in to the purpose of this post, I'd like to describe myself to you. I am a "balanced trainer". I use positive reinforcement wherever possible and appropriate and if that will achieve the best result for myself and my dog, then that is enough. But if I am training for reliability, then the dog must learn there shall be consequences for non-compliance in obedience. I guess the consequence needs to match the degree/seriousness of non-compliance and the degree of danger present in the face of such non-compliance. Using 'human' terms to try to explain what I mean (in case I've lost anyone here)-: If I am late in returning a library book to our local library, I am fined $1.00. Not a big fine, but not a big, dangerous crime, either. If I speed in my car (the potential results of which we are all aware), I am fined $xxx.00 dollars, or I might even lose my driver's licence (ouch!) I'm not saying ANY type of training method is wrong - far from it. I am learnt in most, if not all, aspects. And I use all of what I know - which dog I use which aspect on? ..... well, that depends on the dog and the problem/s at hand and what will achieve the best outcome all round. Having given you some insight as to where I stand in my own training beliefs, I'd like to tell of a lady I read about (maybe others have as well??). This old lady breeds dogs and has done so for many, many years. She trains her pups/dogs using positive punishment only. She has never completed a dog training course; never been to a seminar; never been on a chat line. Nor has she read up on any books about how to train her dogs. And yet her dogs are happy, obedient, willing to work and well adjusted. How can this be, given that she only uses positive punishment training methodology ?