Erny

Fantastic news, mrose_s! And I'm really glad you worked on finishing the "session" on a high note - sounds like you're doing a good job and have a clever dog! One suggestion which might help though ... can you work your desensitisation program so that you don't have to go past all the dogs behind fences? In other words, walk to a point (before your dog starts stressing) and work your focus and treat exercises, then go back home. Repeat, say, 10 times. No reaction, keeping focus? Great. Walk again, but go a little farther to a point (before your dog starts stressing) and work your focus and treat exercises, then go back home. Repeat, say, 10 times. I think you get my gist ...

Thanks, Nat ... gives me a clearer picture, at least without seeing her. What's she like with touching generally (eg. grooming, casual handling) .... wondering if some massage therapy - from you - will help this girl get used to (and enjoy) being handled, which will then help with "guide show and place" training, as well as with confidence. (This was the only handling I did for the first week or 2 when I adopted my girl - she was VERY frightened of strangers. By doing so, it was the first step in building her trust in me. She now loves her belly rubs and massage, even from strangers .... provided she's had the first 5 minutes to sniff them over first!) Keep us informed how she goes and be happy for very small pieces of progress ... once progress starts, it usually begins to snowball! Good luck.

I understand the dilemma, Kavik. I was fortunate when I was working my girl through her aggro (fear) issues. People were very curteous at the places I went to, and if I called for them to put their dog on lead, they did so without issue. I was always able to thank them and they generally seemed happy to oblige. I avoided off-leash parks (not to say everyone was on-lead where they were supposed to be, but, as I said, they were curteous - probably because they knew they should've been on lead anyway). There were some people who, during the varying progresses of de-sensitisation, that I'd ask to help me out .... they seemed to enjoy the fact they were part of my dog's learning curve and training, and it would only take a minute or two of their time. I guess it depends on what suburb you live in and the facilities available to you. Is there no chance that anyone from your obedience club is in your area and willing to work with you (outside of your obedience class venue) on a regular but periodic basis? I don't know how severe your dog's aggression is, but I have found "walking parallel" a really great way to "melt the ice", even if it means initially walking one dog on one side of the road and the other on the other side, and over time, gradually coming in closer, provided the dogs remain relaxed. (Of course, you need to find a suitable area to do this, as you can hardly narrow the distance with a road in between!) I used this "method" on a friend's dog some time ago - we walked for absolutely kilometres (the dogs were fitter than us!) with another friend walking her dog along with us (but across from us). By the end I won't say the dog with the issue was exactly bouncing to "play" with the other, but was relaxed enough to exhibit self-control and obedience compliance (including drops) by the end of the "session". Hope you can find someone to help you out ... seems like you've put in alot of hard work already. Try not to give up on it. What about training kennels? Ever thought of that option? Can take the initial hard yacka out of it so you can carry on from there...

Maybe this is a good place to start ... then build up? Keep the trick training going and introduce one dog, then two (over time and with distance etc etc - incremental training). Maybe classes were just too much for her to deal with all at once.

The Dremel has variable speed, as you say. I run mine on about 3000 rpm (or whatever you call it). This makes it fast enough for a "clean" file, but not too hot (provided, of course, you don't hold it there for too long). I thought I was the only one who discovered that spit helps! I found out after I bought mine that my Dad's had one in the shed for years and years ..... But you'll still need to be able to handle your dog's feet. It's just that with some dogs, even the pressure applied by the guillotine style clippers is painful, so for them the "Dremel" or filing is less stressful. That's why I went for the Dremmel - out of the choices available at Bunnings, it was the quietest. I was concerned about the "noise factor" and its affect, but that's proven NOT to be a problem with my girl. I bought mine with that too, but, as it turns out, haven't had the need to use it. Must try it out to see if there's a difference ... Lucky you, Haven I trust you don't have probs with your dogs' nails? (I'm jealous). Nail polish on my girl's nails??? I'd go through a whole bottle ...... for each nail ! Prior to the Dremel, I used a "bastard" file plus one coarser than that. The coarse one first, to make it easier to get some nail down, and then the finer "bastard" (horrible name) file. I would end up in a sweat after I was done!! (The upside? Good Biceps!)

Perhaps - but, as conditioning to the "zing" (if the dog is going to) is accidental, that would mean that any such dog is going to react to the sound of the check chain links moving. In my experience, the only dogs that have an aversive reaction to the check chain is due to the way their owners have taken them off, causing head shyness. When I get out my girls check chain, she comes running with tail wagging and actually puts her own head into the chain while I hold it. She's also very happy on walks (as are the other few dogs who have conditioned to the "zing"), off and on lead. So go figure .... ?

Hi t-time. I bought the "box and dice" version from Bunnings. Approx. $145.00. Came with the engraver's "pen" attachment. Cheaper versions (ie brands) are available (approx $60-$90.00) but these don't run as quietly as the real thing (ie Dremel). Yes - it's a small grinder. All sorts of attachments are available, so for the guy of the house, it can be used for handyman stuff. To do all nails, all 4 paws, takes me no more than 20 minutes (and that's me being careful!) Clipping nails is faster, and isn't as inclined to weaken the nails. (My girl doesn't have a problem with weak nails, though.) Advantage with the Dremel is you can more easily see where you're at, as far as the quik is concerned. This is difficult when you're clipping - particularly with dogs with black nails, and you have to do bit by bit by little bit - sometimes even then it's "hit and miss". I've found, with the Dremel, you can see where the end of the quik is as you go. If an accident does happen, and you do nick the quik, I find the bit of heat generated by the grinding action cortorises the blood flow and it doesn't bleed much. You should only work on each nail for no more than 3 seconds, though, as the generated heat can build up and become painful. Some people (usually "showies") use the buffer attachment to buff their dog's nails into a high sheen after they've finished grinding ....... I don't though. There's a web-site you can go to that explains the method to use with the Dremel machine on dogs' nails. HERE

Nat - Glad you have had a break through! It's tough when your dog just doesn't do it "by the book", isn't it? You talk about cheating (ie said the cue word first) - IF that's what helped, then I don't consider it cheating (maybe not ideal for later on, as the word can become meaningless if you cue her and she ignores it, but hey .... Sometimes we gotta do what we gotta do and then fix up sloppy areas later on. I really don't have a picture of what your girl is like so it's sometimes difficult to suggest, but a few questions/matters for thought, are mentioned below. Is she a collie as your picture suggests? If not, what breed? Some breeds are not as comfortable with the sit (eg. greyhounds) - doesn't mean they CAN'T do it, just that it's not comfortable so they'd prefer a drop. I'm not sure what her demeanour is like, either - so how far you could "push". Do you think she'd cope if you worked on the sit with her backed into a corner and where you crowd her in (ie walk in close towards her) at the same time as luring her with food? You could also/alternatively do this with her in the drop, and walk in towards her (one foot sliding in between her front paws and under her chest a little) - this might encourage her to sit up. Of course, if she is bothered by you walking in, this would be counter-productive, so it's an idea, rather than a suggestion - you know your dog better than anyone. Of course, if the method your on is getting you somewhere, stick with it for the time being. Other things to think about - what food treat are you using? Is it something REALLY special? Is it enough of a motivator for her? Is she hungry for it? Does she prefer a favourite toy? You say she "shuts down" if you touch her on the rear end to encourage the sit ... is it you leaning over her to do this that shuts her down, or is it the actual touch on her rump that does it? If it's the former, could you use a stick (eg. length of dowell) to touch her on the rump? I'm not sure of her history, but she sounds like a rescue dog, so make sure she's comfortable around the stick first, if you opt for this as a training aid. Or, instead of touching her rump, have you tried using the lead and flat collar with some pressure to guide her upwards, at the same time luring with food (but if you're not using your hand on her rump, she might just walk backwards .... having a wall/barrier behind her might help) As raised by other dolers in this thread, I'd also query as to whether there is a physical issue involved .... have you had her checked for this? My girl had a back issue some number of months ago, and even though she knows sit VERY well, and is a really compliant dog, she was VERY put off by doing the sit (that's why I had her back investigated). That your girl looks "blank" (as you've mentioned) sounds to me like it could be avoidance, and avoidance more often than not comes from confusion (assuming it's not a physical limitation). So maybe, if you're getting somewhere with your method, it'll begin to click into place for her and you'll excell from there .... I hope so! Good luck and let us know how you go.

My girl's nails are as strong as and shaped like tree trunks! They were overgrown when I adopted her and she has a manic phobia to clippers of any kind. For the last number of years, I've hand filed them .... a slow, painstaking job - 2 hours to do all four, and then only simply taking of the surface, not really shortening them by much (although compared to when I got her, they at least are not affecting her natural gait). And I'd need to do them once every 2 weeks. (Lots of walking/running on bitamen "polished" them, rather than helped wear them down!) But now! Now I have a "Dremel" machine - WOW! Have got them down the shortest I've ever been able (not that short, compared to what they should be, but I'm trying to get the quiks to shrink back bit by bit by little bit - working on it every 4-7 days). And I can do all four paws in 20 minutes. Speaking of which, I think they're due to do again .....

I was talking about this. My dog is on the level of CD trailing, so yes he knows a sit comand, plus several others. In response to K9's suggestion that dogs might not recognise the difference between the sound of the links moving in general movement and the sound of the links "zinging", as they would in a correction or self-correction, I see a vast difference between the two. Can you not? Is this what you're driving at myszka?

My mug, or my dogs!?

Myszka - I think if you read all my posts you'll recognise that I never said there was anything wrong with the prong collar. In fact, you'll see that I support it. The discussion pertaining to the check chain arose as a result of one of the posters commenting he/she didn't like them, and my responding by saying they had their place and uses. You'll also see that a number of us (myself included) have concurred that any tool in the wrong hands can be bad.

I don't believe I did (unless I misunderstood what K9 was driving at - I presumed he was the one endeavouring to make the comparison to which you refer, myszka - refer top quote). My response was to negate K9's proposed comparison. I'm not sure what you mean, myszka ... Using a "self-correction" exercise and hypothesising an example such as going to suddenly break a sit and pull out on the leash: In my girl's case the "zing" may act as a correction in itself and she is thus self-corrected, often before she proceeds with her action to reach the physical self correction stage. In your case, and in that circumstance, your dog might not recognise the "zing" as a punisher and therefore proceeds to the "physical" correction stage. Provided our dogs are trained to understand sit (until released) I don't see where the confusion, in either dogs' minds, is. ??

K9: applying a correction that is excessive will extinguish the drive of any dog. Thanks, K9, for your input. I feel the problem here is that you are very selective about picking pieces of quotation from a sentence and thereby removing the very essence of the context for which they were written. This in itself raises responses for which I feel compelled to justify, resulting in the original meaning/point becoming convoluted. In respect to your above quoted statement, however, your response is exactly my point - thank you.

Sorry - just realised my "conversation" with Tess is a bit of a hi-jack to this thread. Perhaps we should start a new thread, Tess?

Not really. In fact, my biggest problem at the moment is that my dog is reluctant to release from a command. I never had a problem with this until an incident at the park. It's a long story involving a HUGE black lab who came rushing at my dog. To protect my girl (and all the hard work I've put into getting her to be ok around unfamiliar dogs) I stood in and took control of the lab. Whilst a bunch of kids (who the dog had followed to the park) were organising something to make into a makeshift lead, I was holding the lab in a drop (seemed to be the only way I could contain him). If he struggled to resist, I used my voice to growl at him. When finally that was all under control and the kids in the park took (dragged) the lab away, I turned around to see my own girl standing near my friend (with whom I was walking), about 20 metres away ..... quaking. What I hadn't realised at the time was the effect of my growling at the lab. I can only presume my girl was confused and assumed I had been growling at her, but didn't understand what she might have been doing wrong. After that, her inhibitive behaviour was obvious for about 48 hours. During that time I did tricks with her, rather than obedience, always rewarding the trick, and releasing after each exercise. With this, her confidence in herself appeared to return and is now ok ..... except for the releases. I can tell her to (eg) sit, and then "sing" her release command, but it often takes me some effort to convince her that she is actually allowed to release. Coupled with her release command are some really tasty rewards and plenty of praise. (She does not like to play with toys etc.) As I've mentioned in earlier posts in this thread, it's as if she's worried about making mistakes .... . In fact, I'm presently spending time coupling her release command with a treat (without having put her in a command) .... Anyway, that's enough of me and mine ..... What is it that your dog does/doesn't do when you ask her to "sit"?

No, I assure you I have been able to "talk" to other dogs using the "zing" as well. Not all, mind you, and not in every application ... and timing needs to be absolutely spot on. I reiterate again that certain things can work for certain individuals in certain circumstances. I made reference to my own girl as an example of how dogs can be "individuals" (the point of reference intended was her high sensitivity, something I don't think her previous/original owners understood which I think is, in part, why she has had behavioural issues.) And she wasn't always 12 years old. In addition, it was not MY intention to centre my comments around MY own girl, but felt it was a good and perhaps clearer example of what I have been endeavouring to communicate. (ie different dogs/different methods/different equipment - and the possible uses of the equipment).

What I'm trying to say, K9, is that through her initial training, an automatic, although unintentional pairing of the "zing" and the "correction" occurred. I am also trying to communicate (to you) that my girl does not require, in the majority of circumstances, to have the correction "followed through" .... the sound of the "zing" is sufficient and serves, for her, as a correction. There is a difference between the chain gently moving along the links in general movement and the actual "zing" preceding a correction. My girl is very obedient when we are out - in all facets, including (but not limited to) recalls, sits, stands, drops, drops on the move, drops at a distance, hand signal command compliance, stand stays and drops out of sight and when we are out she is mostly off-leash (where allowed). She is command compliant and seeks to please and loves it when she's "got it right". The only thing we're not real flash at is heeling. She's better on lead than off, and it's not really "tight". But I am satisfied with the progress she's made since I adopted her (at which time she was human as well as dog aggressive and knew only the very basic of obedience command skill), so, with her, I don't push for better in the heel - I'm satisfied. If I apply a correction that far exceeds what she requires, I provoke inhibition. Inhibition does not occur when I use the "zing" of the chain to communicate against an unwanted behaviour. She's also passed at a basic level "scent detection" test, although it took us alot of work, due to her having a long bout of illness, as well as not possessing the most ideal temperament pre-requisits for the job! She's now going on 12 years old. Perhaps you haven't come across a dog like mine. And this is where I'm endeavouring to emphasise the point that there are many different ways to train and that there are numbers of different styles of equipment available (well, maybe now not in Victoria!) and that each style has a valuable place ...... depending on the dog and the circumstances.

And I think the ignorance involved in the decision to ban the prong collars in Victoria is amplified by a State Government's MP's admission that submissions by qualified dog trainers and dog trainers' governing bodies as to the virtues of the prong collar, were not even read, least of all considered.

Because, through pairing, it is possible for a dog to be conditioned to perceive the sound of the chain "zinging" as if it had received the correction itself. This tends to only work, however, on an intermittent schedule. With my (adopted at 7yo) girl (who, I might add, is one of the most sensitive dogs I've ever had to work with, and who's behaviour is sometimes inhibited merely because she is concerned about making mistakes), the sound of the chain is an effective correction - anything more intense provokes generalised inhibition. (Again, depending on the circumstances and environment at the time.)

I expect because of 'bad press' and the misconception of its use and effect by the common public. I use the e-collar when appropriate, and, only because it is appropriate, good results are achieved. I disagree - if the intensity is not at a level that is aversive to the dog, then the correction is meaningless or ignored by the dog. Of course consistency (edited to add "and timing") is imperative, given that dogs learn from patterns. Nor do I. Nervous? No. Wisely cautious? Yes. Hence I have experience (at varying levels) in the use of many pieces of equipment, from headcollar, checkchain, prong collar, to e-collar ... all used on different dogs for different reasons. No, I don't. I'm always searching for overall improvement. Why? Because generally one piece of equipment achieves the better result with most dogs? Yes, we can have our "favourites" .... but occassionally there's that 'other dog' that is going to respond best (even at a certain time of teaching/training and/or to get through a certain behaviour issue) to another piece of equipment. That's why my mind is always open ....

Thanks Kitkat - just needed to make sure I wasn't about to use the wrong stuff in my girl's ears.

... anyone ????

K9: If a method works well and the most efficiently (for human and dog), I don't see a problem with "sticking with old, partially outdated methods" (your terms, not mine). K9: Checking up on this comment .... Have only checked one place (minority) - Assistance Dogs for Independance. As mentioned in earlier post, they use flat collars on pups and then go to the Check Chain. Plan to research further asa I get a chance. K9: And an effective correction is one that changes the dog's behaviour. So, it depends on the dog you're working with, IMO. For a very sensitive dog (as mine is), the "zip" sound often effects her as would a stronger correction on a different dog, depending, of course, on the environment and the situation. I can also more easily work a chain to 'discourage' a behaviour (ie perhaps not effectively changing the dog's behaviour, but preventing it from perceiving that the behaviour is acceptable) with reduced, if any, damage to the encouragement of a behaviour I am teaching it simultaneously. (Although sometimes I sacrifice pushing the point on an unwanted behaviour, for the sake of a behaviour I wish to encourage, until the wanted behaviour becomes stronger and I can actively work on weakening the unwanted behaviour - it just depends on what the behaviours are and at what point the training is at.) Again, whether this serves to best achieve the results I seek depends on the dog, the environment and the situation. The above is only in response to the selected pieces of my posts you have chosen to highlight. I don't wish to enter a debate on which piece of equipment is better than the other, simply because I do not see one as better than the other. I thought my earlier posts expressed that I see the value of both pieces of equipment and regard the same as tools for our tool box, to be used in the most suited of situations and the most suited of dogs, but I apologise if my choice of wording has not transmitted clearly.

No, a Prong Collar (aka Power Chain) is a collar made up of a series of interlocking blunt, metal prongs connected by a loop of small link chain. As mentioned, each link has two metal prongs (bent and rounded) that, at rest, sit firmly on the dog's neck. This collar, when tightened, evenly applies pressure around the dog's neck - the prongs 'squeeze' (or 'pinches') the skin on the dog's neck. If you want to read up on the principals of how a prong collar works, one (of many) web-sites you can visit is Training with the Prong Collar by Suzanne Clothier Some pictures of prong collars (as well as text) can be found at Prong Collars