Erny

Sorry Packsapunch ... maybe it was me, but the way I read your post was as if you were saying Diesel's behaviour was ok and that you wouldn't correct (that was the infliction I read, anyway). Also, didn't understand you meant for Melisski and Diesel to stay at the gate. Sorry if I misinterpreted ... and didn't mean to pick everything you said apart. I just got a bit concerned that Melisski could read it as I did too. Forgiven?

You might not like all people, packsapunch, but that doesn't mean you've got the right to be aggressive towards them. My girl (adopted as an adult with dog/dog issues) isn't interested in interacting with other dogs. But, over time and with careful and consistent training/management, she has learnt toleration. That she doesn't like them enough to go play and romp with them doesn't worry me either. But I don't agree that aggression should be accepted as 'normal' and acceptable. I agree ... timing and level of correction is crutial. An aggressive dog isn't necessarily acting dominant - true dominance aggression is more rare than some would believe. Most aggression that I see at class is based in fear. This is why I recommend the handler work to prevent and not put the dog in a position where it feels pressured enough to exhibit the aggression. But, when/if it's shown, we do need to get the message across that it is not acceptable behaviour. I agree - not if the club condones that sort of handling. Not sure what you mean here, Packsapunch ... What? That Melisski should only go in with Diesel when it suits Diesel ??? That's not what I'd call Melisski being in charge. What if there was, one day, a really good reason for Melisski to go in there (for Diesel's safety, for example) ... would she have to forfeit because she's taught Diesel that her entry to the pen is on his terms? Forgive me if I've misunderstood ... but I don't see how revolving around Diesel is gonna help matters.

Yeah - Zero and Tank .... whilst I've been busy 'discussing' advantages of 'papered' qualifications, we've seemed to have gotten away from your issues. Sorry. Have you been able to procure some help to assist in Tank's issues?

You can have studied a subject without having recieved a qualification not everyone has the money or time to spend on courses to give them a piece of paper for something yb Never said that wasn't true, Yogibear.

Thanks for the response to those questions, Melisski. I really don't like suggesting treatment methods for aggression via email/written word. I've posted before that my preference is to "see" the dog in action and coach the handler in what to do to manage and resolve. I'm not surprised that the behaviour has occurred in the 'age' time frame you've described. Diesel sounds like he's feeling his 'adolescent muscles', so to speak. It does also seem to becoming apparent as a result of earlier confrontations (as you would've already probably guessed). De-sexing might help curtail any inter-male aggression which might be occurring as a result of hormonal influence and seeing as you've decided not to breed, I concur that it's a good idea to desex him. However, there's some learnt behaviour in there too, by the sounds, probably resulting from fear/uncertainty, on Diesel's part, as to the intentions of the other dog/s. There are a number of things that can be done: 1. Preventing Diesel's behaviour (to show it's not integral to his survival). 2. Desensitisation to other dogs (building good association - play with toys, food treats, rewards, pats, praise etc. when Diesel is in the presence of other dogs but is exhibiting appropriate and wanted behaviour). 3. Teaching Diesel to look to you as his response to his feeling of uncertainty, rather than to taking matters into his own paws. By teaching this, you provide an outlet for Diesel to relieve his anxiety by looking to you and he receives a bigger reward from doing that than he would if he were to aggress to the other dog. Harder to explain in writing how to achieve this, than it is to demonstrate in person. 4. Although it's best to avoid putting Diesel in situations where he feels compelled to aggress, sometimes 'accidents' happen - either by handler error, or by being in an environment we can't control. If Diesel does aggress, it is necessary to let him know, in no uncertain terms, that behaviour is unwanted and will not be tolerated. I normally communicate this by a correction - and it must be a correction that is effective for the dog. Talk with the management of your club. Do they have people in authority there that have the qualifications and experience to deal with the behaviour? ie Behaviourist qualifications/experience is what I'm talking about. If not, I'd be seeking a place that can provide what you need - they are around. PM me if you need some suggestions in this respect. Hope the above is of some help. Now ... gotta get back to work (I'd rather 'speak dog' all day! ).

Yeah, but Nepolean Bonaparte died at age 52 after 6 years in exile ...

Writing this "on the fly" at the moment, but there'd be a few questions I'd like some information on before we go further ... 1. How old is Diesel now? 2. Is he desexed? 3. Has there been ANY incident (search back in your memory banks really hard ... sometimes we forget about things because we didn't think much of them at the time) that might have given Diesel to be aggressive. Eg. A dog that was a bit too "over the top" on greeting, that might have bothered Diesel (even though he might not have reacted aggressively in response, at the time). 4. Is there a pattern to Diesel's selective aggression. Eg. Entire males (this is where Diesel's age and sexual status might factor in), dogs of certain sizes and/or colours, fluffy dogs, short haired dogs, dogs that tend to be very 'in his face bouncey' etc. etc. Look hard ... sometimes there are patterns that are obscure and difficult to detect without vigilance, but they are there. 5. Is there a common denominator as to the environment you're in at the times when Diesel exhibits his aggressive behaviour. (Eg. Always at obedience school, down at the park, etc.) or is it random? 6. Is it only when he's on lead? Take time to think and, if necessary, investigate these possibilities. They can often lend some valuable clues.

I hear you, pgm and agree, to an extent ... what bothers me is the person with "years of experience" which might include a fair amount of guess work, and perhaps sheer luck, in dealing with aggression issues, rather than on the basis of really knowing and understanding what they're doing. I agree with people getting referrals. Good idea. Quite often, though, people, by the time they seek help, are fairly desperate and the issue needs some pretty urgent action .... so I wonder if many people follow through with getting those referrals or whether they're so greatful there's someone there who "says they can help" because they've been dealing with dogs for years (perhaps only in obedience training?) that they don't follow up on this. I don't mean to give the impression that I'm a "certificate means everything" type of person (I swear by a canine chiro who doesn't have those 'formal' qualifications), but I've had a number of people approach me with their dog's problems/issues after having received "advice" from their 'unqualified' instructors at obedience schools. The advice has been wrong, inappropriate, incomplete and progress not properly monitered, if monitored at all. This has resulted in a worsening of the dog's behaviour, in some cases making modification of the behaviour even more difficult. Naturally, these people believed they were receiving good and proper qualified advice. After all, many of the other members of their club thought they were good. Just bothers me that the unsuspecting are open to being lulled into a false sense of security and belief. In general, some formal qualification does at least evidence having undertaken a course in the required/relevant field of expertise.

Thank you for that compliment, Amhailte. This may well be the case, Yogibear, but you take a more of a punt by assuming/hoping the 'unqualified' person knows what they're talking about, and, particularly in issues of aggression, for the dog's sake, you really don't have alot of room for error in terms of treatment modification programs. Sure, perhaps some 'qualified' persons might not be really good either, but I think there's more chance of working with someone who knows their stuff, inside and out, if you know they've undertaken and passed a good course that includes not only training but dog psychology. :D

Tank looks gorgeous! Zero - aggression is a complex issue and I could probably write a page here in an effort to cover all manner of causes/reasons for the aggression. The behaviour modification treatment plans would take up another number of pages, as I'd be wanting to cover all angles and suggest treatments depending on what the causes of the aggression were. And at the end, I'd probably suggest not to guess or muck around, but, instead, to actually see someone qualified to assess Tank's behaviour - that way a teatment plan can be designed specifically to suit Tank. In addition, progress could be monitored and the treatment plan adjusted (if necessary) accordingly. What obedience club are you joined with? Do they have qualified professional dog trainers familiar/experienced in dealing with dog aggressive behaviours? I can suggest a training club that will be able to talk with you, assess Tank's behaviour, monitor progress and spend time in class with you (specifically) to guide your handling of Tank and help deal with any 'hurdles' along the way. The training club I speak of is Australian Dog Training. If you want to know more of them, you'll find a thread titled "Australian Dog Training" in this forum. If you'd like to know anything else, feel free to PM me. Either way, get onto this asap, as the more Tank gets the opportunity to exhibit his aggressive behaviour, the more it will become learnt behaviour and the more confident he will become that it serves his purpose, and the more aggressive the behaviour tends to become (and the behaviour continues to escalate accordingly). In the meantime, good on you for helping Tank by giving him a loving home :D . Let's see if we can help you sort out Tank's belief system and channel it into something of a more acceptable exhibition of behaviour. :D

I'd investigate his diet and, if not change it, at least add omega oils to it. (I use Vet's All Natural Omega Special Blend.) When I used to swim my girl, the chlorine caused her to itch. So, after every swim (which was frequent) I used to wash her off and use an oatmeal based shampoo. The less the shampoo lathers, the better it was for her skin (as this indicated there was less detergent in it).

Thank you, Packsapunch. I understood your "perch" explanation perfectly! It was very helpful.

Thanks I've not tried it myself .... would you please let me know, Kylie, how effective it is once you've had a chance to test it out? I use Revolution on my girl (also controls mites and provides heartworm protection), but I've thought about this natural recipe for general household maintenance/cleaning (ie carpets, dog beds etc.). Just haven't got around to preparing the formula.

I haven't heard of "perch work" ... can you explain, packsapunch?

I posted this natural Anti-Flea Recipe (for dogs) ages ago in this forum .... I got it from the internet somewhere ... Recipe - One (1) big fat Lemon - slice it paper thin. Place the slices into a bowl add a tablespoon of crushed rosemary leaves (or a 6 inch sprig of fresh rosemary). Pour over a quart of boiling water - steep (soak/leave) overnight. Strain and put into a large spray bottle. Refrigerate - shake well before applying. A GSD breeder in the US uses this recipe. The lemon and rosemary is meant to give the dog's coat a healthier shiny coat while keeping fleas & bugs away. A tablespoon of Aloe pulp can be added if the dog as a dry skin or allergies. You can use the spray twice a week to repel bugs and you can spray it around the house on carpets or around the doors. During "flea" time you can spray daily on the dog's belly and feet. It can even be used on humans! (according to the author).

I'd love to see that, Kelpie-i .... if I might ?? Which Video?

I was going to suggest this too ....

Thank you, Zia - yes, it does. I love that saying : "When you find something, set it free. If it comes back ... it's yours. If it doesn't .. it never was." I always look to rehabilitating the wild birds and returning them to where they were found, if possible. Rescued a Tawney Frogmouth Owl, once (wing was caught in a barbed wire fence). Vet said it'd never fly again .... lots of care (antibiotic powder on hole in flesh of wing) and special feeding saw that bird sore way up to the highest gum trees and beyond, when I was finally able to set it free. Funny thing, it was - used to go stiff like a branch on its perch and shut its eyes (I can't see you so you can't see me???). Made me laugh. Had other maggies too and their individual quirks/personalities always gave me a laugh, but none as special as Emma. Rodney sounds like a bit of a character too ..... Anyways, sorry to the OP - some of us have hi-jacked this thread somewhat. Now returning to normal transmission .....

I had one too ... similar situation as your ex-SIL, Zia. When Emma (her name) grew stronger, and flight feathers grew in, I began teaching her to fly - bit by bit. Eventually, she'd fly from her outdoor cage/avery to our balcony railing (country property - fair distance). Over time her flight path expanded until she could fly miles across the land. I'll never forget coming home from school and woof whistling her (you know, with fingers in mouth ... can't do that anymore!). I would watch the clear blue sky and eventually see a black speck that kept growing and growing in size, until she soared in and landed on the balcony railing, wanting her dinner. I loved that feeling - to have a relationship, of sorts, with something free and wild. Humbling. Her visits grew less and less frequent, until they were no more. I hope she lived to grow happy and old, with lots of 'children' to carry the legend of her tales. Sorry for the hi-jack - had to share that!

Mel .... I do hope things check out ok for your boy. And good on you for taking on and caring so much for a "Special Needs" dog. (I think that's a lovely term for the 'condition', Ibite)

Is it wrong that I think this is very funny? I wondered the same thing ...... then thought "naaaaahhhh".

jdavis Pondering on this. Pitty you couldn't put an antibark collar ..... on the CAT! That'd put him off from sitting on your fence and tormenting your pooch!

PS - Hose is a good idea. If there is a "select" section of fence upon which the cat normally sits, would a motion detector system work? I think they're called "scarecrow" systems. www.innotek.com.au might be the link (sorry, haven't taken the time to check, so going on memory). Grease is a good idea too. Just a thought - in this day and age of people out to sue people .... if the cat gets grease all over it and brings it inside to the cat owner's home and damages the carpet (for example), can you be seen as "booby trapping" and in any way, shape or form be held liable????

Good on you, Zia. I wish more cat owners were as like minded. I don't understand how dog owners' mentality could comprehend anything other than keeping our/their beloved pets where they're safely housed (regardless of by-laws) and out of danger, but where cat owners' mentality allows their cats the unsupervised freedom of the land, with all its inherent dangers, even though they love their moggies just as much as people with dogs love their dogs. It would also help those who appreciate and enjoy birdlife to know they're not likely to suffer the imposition of someone else's cats to torment their otherwise "bird friendly territory".

Thank you, Ellz. Interesting. I have done a quick google search (have to go out to the Chemist) and haven't found anything about plastic bowls & loss of nose pigment in dogs, but did find something about plastic bowls & feline acne. Seems unrelated to our topic, but, for anyone else interested, one article says that they're not sure what it is about the plastic bowls that causes feline acne. One suggestion is that food particles collect in tiny scratches and grow the bacteria which cause feline acne. Another possibility is that it is a contact allergy. When I've got time, I'll do another google search to see if I can find anything that might explain the effect of plastic bowls on the pigment of dogs' noses.