Erny

Oh good ... can go put the hair dye back in the cupboard. Thanks for the link.

Yep. And also as a simple "cue" and, if trained that way, a "reward".

This was in that article, HR. Do you know what the author means by this? Am I just having a blond day? Does he simply mean he talks to his clients (like, by phone?)

Totally agree, Ricey. Pity prong collars have been banned for use here in Victoria. I believe yet another of Hugely Worthless' invoked legislations. Anyone without the knowledge of how to properly use any equipment would do well to seek proper tuition, including, even, headcollars, which I commonly see fitted and used incorrectly.

I don't think Sidoney intended to suggest you were against them. I think Sidoney was merely anticipating some questions that might be forthcoming (as they commonly are). If you want some more information on them, there's plenty here on DOL. Use the search engine under "electric collar" and/or "e-collar" (or variations) and you're sure to come up with plenty of reading to keep you busy for the next decade!

Good post, Sidoney. Nicely and simply explained. Boxagirl ... they can be used to train/strengthen the desired behaviours and weaken/extinguish undesired behaviours, whether that be obedience related and/or behavioural related. ETA: The setting you would have the collar on would depend on what you were using it for and what would be effective for the dog at the time.

An electric collar. Great piece of training equipment, IMO. Pity they're use is restricted here in Victoria. If I'm not mistaken, that's another of Hugely Worthless invoked legislation.

Stupidly? I wouldn't beat yourself up about it. The collar was probably purchased from a petstore in the good faith that it would safely service the use for which it was intended. These collars are ideal for holding on the dog's tags when the dogs are at home, or safely housed in one shape or form. The ones I get cross at are the manufacturers who don't have some label on the 'plastic clip' collars to suggest they are not suitable for training/walking. (Or at others, when I know they've been warned.) Or at petshops, for not asking customers what they intend to use them for and educating people accordingly. Yes, they snap easily. But even in the most basic of incidences, where you might be holding the collar for whatever reason .... just small accidental pressure on the clip can cause it to release (especially once the collar is 'worn in' .. the clip tends to give easier). Also, I find exposure to the weather over time disintegrates the quality of the plastic, making it unsuspectingly weak. Anyway, all's well that ends well, as they say. Enjoy your glass of red. Which reminds me, where'd I put my glass???

PS. I trust you got home and had yourself a nice stiff drink and have since stopped shaking? Hate that "weak in the knees" feeling you get after the adrenaline rush!

Oh Wow! CheleasMum! What a day! Good for you for your commitment to training. So glad you were able to prevent a tragedy for you and Chelsea. ETA: And congratulations for your split second thinking! And your story goes to show that, training or not, these sorts of events can (and do) happen and we should always work towards prevention and control by training and by the appropriate training equipment. PS. Were you working on chain or flat collar? If chain, I'd recommend either a German or USA brand only. If a flat collar, for the readers here, I'd recommend a good sturdy one with a buckle (not the plastic clip style so seemingly popular) and good quality attachment for the lead.

Good tip, HR. I did not intend in my earlier post to suggest that anyone should stand in the face on an on-coming dog if there is any doubt that you can do so safely. Having an umbrella is a handy idea.

HR & K9 - I'm a big believer in leadership. Leadership gives me the right to govern, but also the responsibility to protect my 'pack'. I adopted a 7 yo R.Ridgeback. Came with dog/human and dog/dog aggression issues (avoidance motivated). Cutting a very long story short, I did all the leadership things (amongst other stuff) and things were progressing/improving nicely. Walking off leash at park and dog approaches (lead dangling, no owner in sight). Rushes my dog. Instintively, I stood between the two, warding off the 'stranger' dog. I command my dog to 'sit' to help control situation. 'Stranger' dog comes back in on different angle ... I ward it off again (and again and again). (My dog holding 'sit' ... so proud of her .) Finally owner turns up and we go on our merry way. The further improvement in my dog's behaviour ALL ROUND was, since that incident, quite markedly noticeable. My thoughts are that it, in her mind, it 'sealed the deal' in so far as her trust in me as leader was concerned and served to convince her that she could look to me to handle situations she was unsure of, rather than taking matters into her own 'hands' (ie teeth). Didn't make her LIKE the situations any better (which is where desensitisation comes in), but she does defer to and trust my choices. This in turn has served to increase her confidence in general.

I am going to try to answer, pgm, in two parts (pardon me if I'm putting in stuff you already know, which I suspect you do): Part 1. At the beginning, the word "no" is meaningless to the pup. So we condition "no" by pairing the word with some form of aversive. As the pup (with consistency in training) learns this, the "No" can have the same or similar effect as if it had also received the aversive. Of course, if you don't intermittently pair it with the aversive, the effect of the word on its own will diminish, but it's a handy word to have your dog understand for certain occasions throughout its life. Part 2. As the pup hears "no" and receives an aversive each time it goes for your books, but receives a treat/pat/play when its not going for your books, it picks up the pattern of what gets it good things and what doesn't. If we left the pup full access to your books during this learning phase, the pattern is broken if the pup goes for your books and doesn't receive the "no" and/or aversive. This is why "prevention" when we're not around during this learning phase is important. That, or at least keeping the "pattern" a constant by setting the pup up to deter or even self-correct if you're not there but can't deny access. (HR's example of Vapour Rub). Over time, it becomes clear to the dog what it can chew to receive good things and what it can't (whether we're around or not), and this becomes an ingrained habit. (Mostly :p) I'm still not sure if I've answered your question, pgm ... or perhaps HR did in his earlier post?

I'm not sure I understand where you're not clear, pgm. Perhaps the others can pick this up ... ? Are you talking about your "trained" dog, or about a pup in the process of being educated about what to chew and what not to chew? Not talking about the rest of the dog's life. Talking about while the pup is still a pup and in that "gotta chew anything/everything" phase. Talking about prevention and also "self-correction" in the event prevention isn't possible while you're not there. This is the goal of the puppy training. IE To have a dog which understands what is and what is not permissable. :p

One of the NDTF students who has recently completed (very successfully) the course came from Perth to do it. She tossed up about doing the Delta Course, but chose NDTF because of its wider scope in teaching training methods. She now lives down here. (Must love our weather .......... not. :p) I agree - from the number of the posts I've read in various threads it sounds as though "Perthies" would benefit by having a few more trainers with a good background knowledge to training and dog psychology.

Like you, Pippi, I thoroughly enjoyed the course also and was sad when it finished. So much so, in fact, that I did the other couple of courses they have on offer (such as behaviourist and substance detection courses). Haven't looked back since all these courses, and I'm doing lots of stuff involving dogs - big change to my otherwise clerical career!

I heard they anticipated their distance course would start January, 2006. Are they still on track, HR?

Pondering .... speaking out loud, again. There's a clue here. What about using the food to get that 'precise' (albeit slow) finish, a few times, but then rewarding with the toy (even though he expected food). Randomisation. He gets over excited and doesn't finish in the correct position, then release without food or toy reward. Then go back to food. He then gets it right a couple of times, so return to toy. As said ... thinking out loud (in amongst trying to get some work finished) ... so a bit distracted myself, at the moment. Targeting could work ... thought of that earlier. Maybe could use combination of these suggestions to achieve your goal. ????

Problem is whenever my dog's excited he runs right round me to the front again instead of stopping in heel position at my side. If he's extra excited, he does laps round me! ;) Hhhmm ... pondering. It's great that he's got an enthusiastic recall and I agree you don't want to do anything to discourage that. Thinking out loud ... what about breaking it into two components. (a) The recall component (b) The 'finish' component Just work on the finish (without the recall component). Is he taught to finish on an auto stand or sit? If so, what about taking training back a step and throwing in the "sit" (or "stand") command a moment before he's come around to the "heel" position. Assuming you have compliance, jackpot treat for the position. Use the "10 times" rule (ie you don't move forward from this method until he's worked successfully 10 times in a row ... not neccessarily in the same session, just 10 times in a row). After that, wean off from giving the command to see if you then have "auto sit/stand" happening. Do the "10 x" rule. Then attach a short recall (10x). Then increase the recall distance. Do you think this might help, Amhailte? Or have you already tried something like this?

Glad to hear, Kitty! Keep up your good work and enthusiasm. I'm rapt to hear you're enjoying training with your pup and sharing special times. Good for you.

;) Never thought to ask you what the OTHER members of your family were doing ..... come to think of it, I didn't know you HAD other members! Tell OH not to despair, though. Get your dog out of this "roll-over" habit first. Then teach the "roll over" command. OH can then enjoy the belly rubbing if she's complied with the "roll over" command..... THEN she'd be getting her tummy scratched on your terms, not hers. Happy tummy tickling!

Since I can't see your dog, I can only assume your thinking that this is a submissive gesture is correct. I've encountered this with the occasional dog and one of a number of methods I've adopted is to :- (1) be on the move; (2) stop; (3) the instant you stop, say the dog's "marker" word (assumes you've conditioned it to one ... eg "Yes!") or praise; (4) instantly move on .... praising as you go. The trick is to make steps numbered (2) and (3) happen so fast one after the other that your dog doesn't get an opportunity to lie down and roll over. Do several very fast repetitions of this each session - so quick your dog stops trying to roll over because it anticipates that you will be immediately moving on. Always work to finish your sessions without the dog rolling over. Give jackpot reward if your dog stops for a whole second without doing the roll over. Then, after a little while, jackpot for 2 seconds, then 4, then 6 etc.

Pedantic? No. Waste of time ... for you, perhaps. But some may not find it so. All I'm suggesting to readers is that they should be careful to ensure there is a reasonable pause (eg. 5 seconds) between the pup stopping the unwanted behaviour and receiving a reward, so's best to avoid the possibility of the dog pairing the two together. Can't see anything wrong with that suggestion. It wasn't stated at all. I'm not arguing .... Just posting so some may benefit. ;) again. But that's how the "unconditioned" becomes the "conditioned". Kitty holds her pup, sternly says No, takes the wrong chew item away. A small time break and Kitty gives her pup an appropriate chew item and praises for it chewing on it. What's your method of conditioning the unconditioned? No - I was asking you a question. Didn't get an answer, though. I never endorsed running after the puppy and then punishing it. And that was not advice that was given for Kitty to do. In fact, that was her question in her OP ... should she do it? And she only posted it there because she was unaware that she could speak with ADT during the week. Should I have the feeling you're trying to push me to the wall, Nat? So ... are you suggesting that no one should speak of holding on to the scruff of the dog's neck and sternly say "No" for fear that they might escalate the punishment? To what degree? Are you suggesting to the "abusive" degree?

Where, in LMB's quote above, is it described that the pup stopped the unwanted behaviour? No - it's not the same. As I mentioned earlier, this is good that it worked for LMB. But as I said above, for many pups/dogs, the time lapse between the "No" and the "Reward" can be insufficient enough for the pup to pair the two together and regard the "No" as a precurser to the "Reward". The method I suggested serves to greater remove the risk of this occuring. Aaahh, assumption again. What if "No" wasn't conditioned, though. Would that alter your thoughts on the method LMB used? Do you think it should be different for one (ie before conditioning) than the other (ie after conditioning)? No one has suggested it is an alpha issue. Are you suggesting to wait until there are "alpha issues" evident and THEN be reactive? I'd rather be pro-active by teaching my pup from the very beginning that I am leader and that he/she can trust and depend on that leadership. Part of being a leader is assuming the right to govern. You've already made this clear in your earlier posts, Nat. And you're entitled to your opinion, as you've already expressed. And just as equally, IMO, I see nothing wrong with holding the skin on a pup's neck. As I mentioned in my earlier posts, you are the one imposing into the OP's words the intensity with which the pup is held. Another assumption on your part. As has already been mentioned, Kitty's club has spoken to her and clarified things for her. Kitty was unaware that she could call ADT during the week to query anything that she wasn't sure of.

Edited. Double post. Is anyone else having problems with this?