Erny

K9: whilst their are restrictions, they are not illegal in Vic, a vet check of your dogs health will see you being able to use one legally. Only also under the supervision of a qualified trainer, as I recall.

Arianwen .... are you a qualified Canine Behaviourist? It sounds not, or I'd doubt you'd be posting this question here. Assuming not, then my answer would be for these people to engage the services of one and base their decision on the information and/or suggestions from that reputable behaviourist. This, IMO, is not a question answerable by those on DOL who don't have the opportunity to assess the dog and the situation themselves. By what you have written, it sounds pretty serious - although I don't think you've written how long the behaviour has existed, nor how old the dog is now. Has a medical check been undertaken to rule out any physical/mental deterioration? Either way, it sounds to me as if this dog does require more assertive handling and even under the advisement and tuition of a behaviourist, alot will depend on whether they can give it. That they have children is another grave concern. It sounds as though they should act VERY QUICKLY, too.

If anything, I'd guess it would be "anticipation" .... but perhaps that's what you meant, Kavik?

I have not been involved in the training of "working dog". I have watched a little of it, but by no means enough to render me an expert in any shape, form or degree. But I have seen training where the final part has been the decoy finishing off each session (without the bite suit/sleeve) with a pat/praise/socialisation with the dog (and with the owner praising as well). Could it be that a dog who is more inclined to be "watchful" of a person who has regularly acted as "decoy" is that way inclined as a result of the decoy not finishing off this way?

Thanks Mel .... your comments/thoughts on the "infin8" were explained well. I know what you mean about being more difficult to introduce unless the owners can follow through at home for a week. The training that I do commonly doesn't allow that luxury either. Do you find (or have you had opportunity to find) that the "thin" strap cuts in easily (eg. for over the top exciteable/pully/lunging type dog .... aggressive or otherwise). I found that a disadvantage with the Gentle Leader. The slightly wider nose strap of the Halti, or the thicker webbing type material of the original "Black Dog" didn't have the same degree of tendancy to do this. Note: My emphasis in bold .... not Mel's Being able to modify the intensity of the correction received via adjustment of the "tool" is by the sounds, a useful concept. This is the other part that most interests me (aside from adjustment of correction intensity). I have found the same myself. Given the design requirement to fit tightly, I have experienced more "shut down" reactions than I have with the others I've tried. Generally, I have used either Black Dog or Halti. However, if I could not achieve a satisfactory 'fit' from either of those, I would use a GL. If the dog has aggression issues, though, I tended not to use the Halti, as I find the dogs can more easily slip the nose band, particularly where the handlers are not yet adept in their handling skills. Thanks again, Mel - that answered my initial general questions perfectly.

I thought we agreed not to tell things in this thread j/k Ooops! Sorry. Mum's the word .....

Cheeky SR. So you gonna tell? Do you find, from control point of view: similar; better etc? From dog acceptance of head collar point of view: similar to the various views already expressed in this thread; better? Is it required to fit as snugly/tightly as other head collars? (say, compared to Gentle Leader?)

Has anyone here had an opportunity to trial the new Black Dog "infin8" head collar yet?

Anne - I tried to be nice as you seem to be a bit over reactive to my posts. I don't see why you can't be conversational rather than eluding back to "the thread being deleted". Provided it's useful and/or on a discussional level, I have no objection to you continuing to respond to my posts if you should change your mind.

Hi Amhailte .... I know K9 and HR are better qualified to answer, but I do know of some dogs who've been trained to "guard" (ie "Hold and Bark"). I love watching this - it's really impressive to see the dogs exhibit such control. All the dogs I know of that do this, however, are also trained for the bite work, and I'd guess that the "hold and bark" works so well because the dogs are trained that at some stage (not necessarily in THAT exercise) they will get their reward/drive satisfaction (ie the bite)???? I guess "hold and bark" could be done without the other, but drive satisfaction would need to be met to keep the dogs enthusiastic enough to be realistic. Not a great answer, I know, as this is outside my field of expertise. But I'm sure K9 or HR will come in with an answer soon. I'm interested to know how far outside the mark I am with my guess .

It's very good you've done so well, Anne. You should be congratulated for your efforts. Perhaps not everyone has the same apparent high standard capability as you, might not be able to satiate priorities, or may actually have higher more pressing priorities - some which might not even have been planned of or for, before they acquired their dog/s. Hard (and unfair?) to judge, I guess, unless you're in their shoes. Not suggesting you were judging, of course. ETA: Just to hark back to my question regarding the Boarding & Training facilities you know of .....

I agree, Kelpie-i (and Haven) If you had a different "cue" (verbal or otherwise) for a recall that would include a drop at a distance, then the recall would become slow merely through anticipation. After teaching my dog the general idea of a drop at distance from a recall, I left off for a while, and went bact to pure recall, to rebuild the speed. I returned, later, to put some 'polish' on the recall/drop/recall exercise, then left off again, returning to pure recall. I practice the recall/drop/recall only occasionally, now that she's 'got it'.

Do they have many instructors down there? (Not digging at your inability to remember names, Nat .... I'm lousy with remembering faces )

It's great to hear your dedication and determination. Unfortunately, Anne, not everyone's circumstances and/or opportunities are the same as yours that might permit this, hard won or not. Not suggesting your dog was "easy" - I don't know that one way or the other as I wasn't there. But what's "easy" for one person is "difficult" for another. And, of course, some dogs are harder than others and/or have more/less issues than another. This is part way the necessity for the diversity of private trainers; behaviourists; training schools/clubs; as well as boarding and training facilities. In addition, though, there's been some people who have their dog trained while they're boarding as an "added service". Yes, they get lots of "out of kennel" activity etc., but some people just want to give their dog more. So they have their dog trained (or the existing training maintained and/or enhanced) as an additional source of activity, enjoyment, and physical and mental stimulation during its stay while their owners are away. Hear what you say about your inclination to avoid boarding and training facilities (is that "boot camp" to you?) being a personal preference, but perhaps some of the other people/dog combo's you work to disuade might actually benefit .... ETA: There's many people out there that would abandon their dogs because they can't manage to train them, rather than go to the expense of having them trained. Contrary to the way your statement reads, I don't see people who are prepared and care enough to pay to have their dogs trained as shirking their "responsibility". Quite the opposite.

A fellow by the name of "David" is one of the instructors there, isn't he?

Well done, Lablover1. Assuming the "biscuit" represents your dog's primarily preferred reward and also assuming your dog's only just beginning to learn this, perhaps try giving him primary reward for the wanted behaviour on a continual schedule of reinforcement (ie every time), and then, when the behaviour is reliable, switch to an intermittent schedule of reinforcement, where the primary reward is given every 2nd, 3rd, 1st, 2nd, 4th, 2nd, 1st, 4th, 3rd (etc. - if you get my drift?) time, with the pats/cuddles on the times he doesn't receive the food treat. Does this make sense? ETA: Make a point not to get stuck with showing him the food (beyond the first, say, 5 times) to get the behaviour, though, as then you leave yourself wide open to having to "bribe" him to get him to behave as you wish.

I guess that depends on the training facilities and the services they offer. Which ones do you know of that don't extend explanation, demonstration and ongoing lessons? Perhaps you're not always doing these people a favour? Some people find the training daunting and impossible (and often blame their dogs) and so don't attend training. When their dog is trained for them and they see what their dogs can do, they often become enthused to train and recognise their dog was always capable of training, but that they (the owners) simply weren't aware how to teach it. This is one of the reasons I don't. Not in my experience. I tend to find they're really impressed with the skills their dogs have learnt and are more than happy to continue in the same manner and equipment as they were trained in. ETA: As I mentioned above, seeing what their dogs are capable of often inspires the owners to continue training and to strive to become adept in it themselves.

Maybe my next dog, Hr? I don't have time at the moment (nor funds) for prot training. So, in the meantime, "make do". Given the "greeting" my dog gave the cops when they arrived, they expressed a wonder at why I needed them to come. (Looked very impressive to the unknowing, too, with quick compliance to a drop command which ceased the doggy din & posturing and allowed the police inside .... )

I agree - the noise factor has a bearing on making the 'bad' guys a bit uneasy. But having said that, my alarm, which is "zoned" at night time to a certain unused area, kicked off at 3am a few weeks ago. I hit the "personal alarm" as well (it's a 'back to base' system) and, no questions asked, the security team call the police. They then ring me to see if I'm ok. Police were here in what felt like about 10 minutes. Going by reactions I've seen, I think my dog would aggress an intruder (picking up on my fear), but she's not trained so I don't bank on it . Hope I never have to put her to the test.

K9: rather than bore you with a complete list of tests, the main test that was failed was the stability time of the dog. Strap halter on, takes the dog too long to get used to it before effective training can begin. This is also the difficulty with dogs left for boarding and training - the training time increases significantly, not something ideal for dog owners, who are paying for the board and training and also are looking forward to their dogs coming home. ETA: BTW, I'm regularly (ie at least once a week) involved in the coaching of people utilising/training head collars on their dogs.

I don't agree with this 100% NILIF (nothing in life is free) says it all in regards to times when your dog wants a pat or play: You want something from me, do something for me first. However, as I said in my earlier post, too much non-contingent reinforcement has implications other than leadership. Why should your dog sit for a pat when you just walked over and gave him one for nothing? For the most part, Haven, I agree with you, but IMO there is a "depends" factor here ..... Eg. Attention seeking and/or Jumping up at you type dog. You ignore. Dog stops and goes away somewhere else (because its goal was not achieved). You approach and pat. The pat/attention builds on the dog's non-attention demanding behaviour. Having said that, I usually (where appropriate and possible) suggest the owners do a recall and then they're free to interact with their dog. But there are the odd occasions when I don't recommend this.

Then I'll warn all those going to the Melbourne seminar to watch their speed on Princes Highway in the vicinity of Beaconsfield-Emerald Road. Coming from the Dandenong end of Princes Highway, the speed signs vary from 80, down to 60, down to 50, up to 60, up to 70, down to 40 (in school hours) up to 70 ..... and it's a fairly popular place to get "nabbed" .....

I usually start "on leash" .... with loose lead walking first. As part of the loose lead walk training, my highest praise generally comes whenever the dog is at my left leg. No "heel" command at that point. Just merely builds up in the dog that the REALLY good stuff comes when he's at the left leg. When the dog's doing well at loose lead walking, I shorten my leash (no tension) and transfer the exercise into "heel" work.

Similar principals to scent detection work?

They don't have to be left on to cause flesh injury. A client used a head collar on her GSD, because the dog would lunge out at other dogs in the vicinity and she said she didn't have the strength to hold the dog back. The head collar was her means of maintaining control. With all the lunging out, the nose strap was cutting into the skin across the top of the dog's muzzle enough to rub it raw and draw blood. Whilst the head collar was something the owner needed at the time, the dog no longer wears it ...... Nothing near the injuries of the dog in HR's picture, but injuries all the same. I can only just bear wearing light weight sunglasses across the bridge of my nose. Makes my eyes water sometimes at the thought of the pressure of the nose strap over the dog's muzzle.