Erny

Well, yeah .... it's one of them.

I'm not 100% sure on the "turn off" names, but what I can tell you is that you don't take the South Gippsland turn off. Keep to your middle or right lanes until you pass that. You'll be heading towards "Warrigal" rather than Cranbourne/Hastings. Continue on .... you'll pass "Narre Warren" and "Ernst Wanke Road" (not sure if that's the right order. Shortly after, you'll see the "Berwick" turn off. Take it, and turn left into Princes Highway. You will go through: Park Hill Drive intersection (lights) Clyde / Lyall Road intersection (lights) .... proceed up the hill. Goucester Road (lights) ... this is a minor 'T' intersection half way up the hill. Round-a-bout - ..... this is almost at the top of the hill. Manuka Road (lights) .... going down the other side of the hill now. At the next set of lights, turn left. This is Beaconsfield-Emerald Road Go through a round-a-bout (the Cardinia pub is on the right had side). Venue is the 2nd last property on the right side after the Cardinia Park Hotel. Refer K9's earlier email for further description of property. Hope this helps. See you there.

No, sorry guys, it's not.

Good for you Kitty. I think these sorts of hi-jacks are always welcome. ;)

It is ..... it's one of the few remaining "pub" type pubs. I used to pop in there after a long sweaty day horse-riding (on the way home). It's a very "take me as I am" type place. ISH - I doubt they'll notice you (nor care) that you're snacking on your sandwiches. I plan to go .... save fixing lunch beforehand.

A lttle bit of vegemite (liquidised in a bit of hot water first) in your dog's water might inspire her to drink .... even if only a few laps at first. Hope she recovers soon. I very much know what it's like when Vets don't listen to you, fob you off and write you down as a worry wort ..... mine was a case of peritinitis, but they wouldn't listen to me.

I'm a member of Action Dogs, but these days I don't go to train Kal. I started her about 3 years ago .... merely to build her confidence. Long story short, she has the more than occasional problem with her back/hip area going out of align (because of something else which is another long story). Plus the fact she's getting older. I go there once every couple of months, though, but all I do is put Kal over a couple of the obstacles she enjoys, before training starts. We only do the low stuff, and only for a few minutes or so. That seems to be enough for her. I don't go to KCC Park (ie K9 Agility) but my friend is an instructor and committee member there, so I've got a good idea of what they do.

And that was the point about my first post ..... without a chance, it's impossible to determine if the dog's not worth saving ....

Perhaps the stimulation is irritating? I'm not sure. Perhaps check in with K9 Force, as he is experienced in the use of stimulation collars?

Have PM'd you, Haven. ;)

Great that her training's going well. IMO owners are credited with the dog's "problems" as much as they are with the "successes" .... so congratulations to you. I haven't seen her (haven't been to ADT much in the last month or so ... caught up with NDTF lectures etc.), so difficult for me to shed a qualified opinion, but if you can use a toy - one which is ONLY for training, it is often better (in the long term) for use in building drive. (Refer K9's many threads relating to drive; building drive etc.) The pats and praise you're giving her now might be sufficient for the level you're in, but a really strong desire to earn her "prey item" will help in achieving a much higher level in obedience training. ETA: Not saying you won't get there without - at the end of the day, the dog always dictates what its favourite motivator is (but we can work to tickle its desires, where possible ... ) I adopted my dog "Kal" when she was 6 3/4 years old. I only wish I could have had her from a pup so I could have worked harder at developing her prey drive beyond what she's got now .... which isn't exactly zilch, but is close. I could've used it to work through many issues alot easier than I've had.

AO - IMO, I'd suggest a different tool but have a trainer experienced and knowledgeable in its correct use to show you how to use it and what training technique to apply. Not to say that with patience and perserverance you'd probably work through your dog's loathing/annoyance at the head collar pressing on the many sensitive nerve endings on her nose ......

AO - I don't think you're hi-jacking .... or, if you are, you're probably hi-jacking our hi-jack! If that's what works BEST, then, IMO, yes ... it's fine. Is it that she's a bit too distracted, or even overwhelmed, at the moment, to be interested in what would be her usual motivator at home? If so, keep bringing the motivator, because as she settles down, you'll probably find it will come back into play eventually. Also, is her toy motivator something that ONLY comes out for training?

;) :p I don't know what you mean ........ ETA: If there are many of those clubs that oppose motivation, I think I'd be wasting my time. Think I'll stick to what I've got!

I have visited a couple (but not as a member, so didn't participate). I wasn't allowed close enough to the "action" to hear what the instructors were directing their clients to do (or not to do).

Axel ..... you'll get some good advice from HR! And HR - I don't think Zia will hold anything against you ..... I have seen much stronger posts written (mine? ..... ! in some threads )

Another ;) from me! I'm the opposite ..... it's always the handler's fault! ;) And that goes for me, too, if my training's not happening as I'd expect.

Yes - both Action Dogs and K9 Agility have "beginners" classes. Action Dogs have a "foundation class" that you will need to work through first - it's about HOW to train and habituate and build drive/motivation. K9 Agility might have that too ... I'm not sure. The foundation class is something pups can do to. They then have the levels that you go through from bottom to top! But the girl who's number I gave you, CF will be able to explain better than I.

Not doubting you at all .... just amazed that there are "trainers" out there who don't encourage the use of motivational instruments to aid in the dogs' training. I don't believe I've seen any issue to any big degree with "disruption" in any of the classes I have at ADT. We have many "release" times after each exercise for the dogs. The "release" times are used as the dogs' "pay cheque" for a job well done. The release is not so much a "break" as it is part of the dogs' training program. A play on words, I guess, but it can make a difference to some people who might regard the "break" as a downtime, rather than an uptime for the dog. We don't just allow it, but teach it as part of training. At the clubs you know of that didn't work with motivation (or very little of it) .... what were the dogs like? IE Obedience and demeanour ????

DD - ;) ;) :p gorgeous !

That's about the strength of it, K9. Silly as it seems. When I've spoken to Vets to get their "permission" to use an e-collar, the common response is "oh .... if you think so, so do we ....". For those interested, here's an extract from the Regulations: 7E. Use of certain electronic collars prohibited (1) A person must not use an electronic dog training collar that can impart an electric shock on a dog or any other animal except in the circumstances in sub-regulation (2). (2) Sub-regulation (1) does not apply to a person who uses an electronic dog training collar on a dog - (a) if a veterinary practitioner has examined the physical health and temperament of the dog and reasonably believes that the dog is suitable to have an electronic dog training collar used on it; and (b) the person is - (i) a veterinary practitioner; or (ii) acting on the instructions of a veterinary practitioner; or (iii) a qualified dog trainer (within the meaning of regulation 13(2) of the Domestic (Feral and Nuisance) Animals Regulations 1996); or (iv) acting under the supervision of a qualified dog trainer (with the meaning of regulation 13(2) of the Domesitc (Feral and Nuisance) Animals Regulations 1996).

Zia - Somehow it's because the "makers" of the legislation believe that Vets are the best to advise as to whether the dog's temperament is suitable for e-collar use and also whether the behaviour issue warrants and would be suitable for it. No offence to those Vets who really do know and understand in depth "dog behaviour", but most, I find, know more on the medical side of things (as they should) and have spent a considerably short time in their Vet Courses studying behaviour, compared to many other people (trainers etc.) who have studied and regularly and broadly work with "canine behaviour".

As HR inferred, could be your "leadership" is in question with this dog. How old is he? Perhaps he's at that age where he's "flexing his adolescent muscles" .... it's not uncommon for me to hear people saying "he has been obedient, up until now ..." This usually indicates either: 1. The dog is changing (age related hormones etc.) 2. The owner has changed (routine, assertiveness etc.) Can you fill us in with a bit more detail ... perhaps we can help you better, but I still suspect leadership needs to be investigated as the symptoms smack of an imbalance there. ETA: Oops, sorry - just read your more recent post. 22 months - prime time for your dog to be thinking he's Top Dog. (Flexing muscles, as I suggested above). Take a serious look at your leadership - the things you do on an every day basis, as well as your assertiveness. If he's not listening to your commands, and learns he doesn't have to, that's not going to help him believe in your capabilities as leader, and can lead to your situation becoming worse. There are HEAPS and heaps of discussions we've had here on DOL regarding leadership and how to achieve/re-establish it. Check out the DOL search engine under "leadership" and also "NILIF" and have a read. If you're not sure of anything that's written there, come back here and ask. Get onto it quickly, though .... the longer it goes on, the longer it takes to re-establish your heirarchy status in the dog's mind.

CF - Action Dogs have a good system and method of training and I'd recommend them too. They're not taking any more new members this year, but if you'd like to book in for next year, PM me and I can give you the contact number to ring. Another option is K9 Agility, which runs at KCC park on Thursday nights. Whilst it doesn't have the advantage of being indoors as Action Dogs are, it has the advantage of more room to spread out. I can give you a contact number for that club too, if you require. There are obedience schools that don't allow toys as motivators?! The instructors at ADT are always pushing for people to bring their dogs' favourite motivators and for them to be used in training. Many people use food, and if that's the dog's favourite motivator, I have no problems with that, although I suspect, sometimes, that it's the people who use the food because they find it easier to administer. With a few, it becomes, unfortunately, a replacement for great, energetic and fun interaction with their dogs. Admittedly, there are some dogs who don't enjoy toys (my dog's one of them .... not for the want of me trying otherwise), but generally speaking, I think the best is to have both the dog's primary and secondary reinforcers available for use. (Sometimes the primary and secondary are interchangeable, depending on the dog's preference at the time.)

Ciara ..... very sadly, Victoria's getting there with our various legislations banning prongs and, of course Pit Bulls ....