Erny

Good. ..... she's being submissive .... grovelling to Charlie to show she's aware of her status. And, knowing pups, trying to milk him for attention too!

If you're really worried about her picking up undesirables from the ground where you go, you could try using a pram .... they actually have special ones designed for pups/dogs .... it's like one of those portable material style crates, but built onto a pram frame. Personally, I doubt the odds would be very high of her picking up the germs you're trying to avoid from the ground. It's mainly the public doggy areas where many unknown dogs of unknown health backgrounds that you'd want to avoid. There are virus's that are airborne too, but short of keeping our pups in bubbles .... But you're right .... all due care ...

Sorry .... I've only just come across this thread. Phatdex and Haven had both posted well, and it does sound like Charlie has some issues relating to puppies. I also agree that you need to be careful about muzzling Charlie whenever he's in the presence of the pup. If he isn't fond of the muzzle, it can be an aversive in his mind .... akin to punishment everytime the pup is present. One additional thing you can do is to have the pup crated, bring Charlie in on leash and feed Charlie his dinner (or treats, or play or other stuff Charlie really loves ... like brushing, as you've already done). Randomise these "wonderful events" ... with consistency, Charlie may come to enjoy being around your pup because great things happen for him when he is. It sounds like you may be on the way to getting them used to each other. I probably wouldn't have introduced the dogs at your home .... I tend to prefer to introduce in neutral territory first - but what's done is done and may or may not have made a big difference to Charlie, if his issues relate to pups in general. Keep Charlies routine as close to normal as is possible, too. I think you're on the right track with the care that you are taking with these two being around each other. Another tip, however .... don't forget to teach your new pup some independance training. IE Get it used to knowing that being alone is ok. Take care not to cater to the pup's whining/crying, or you may find you're pup will have probs later on in life. This doesn't mean you have to leave the pup on its own for hourse on end at the beginning. But 5 or 10 minutes at a time won't hurt. Try doing this close to the time the pup's due to sleep, so that you (and/or your dogs) aren't coming back while the pup's still whining .... hopefully, she's simply dozed off! Hope these tips are helpful and that relationships between Charlie and the Pup continue to improve. It's difficult (and not necessarily recommended) to advise in regards to aggression over the net, but some of these idea's and recommendations you may find useful. Let us know of the progress. Cheers. ETA: Some supervised and controlled socialisation to pups at a training school (with instructors intellectly qualified to advise and monitor in the subject) would be recommended and may help Charlie generally. This in itself may have a larger carry over effect with the pup than you might imagine.

... that's a rather extreme measure! I know what you mean, though. I've tried to do that, but you need to hose down each time very shortly after urination has occurred. A trifle difficult if you're not around to do so each time.

Kal kills so much grass with her urine I'm surprised the fire brigade haven't enlisted her instead of backburning in preparation for the summer season!!! I'm not comfortable with some of the food substances suggested to reduce urine burn .... for fear of upsetting the individual dog's normal digestive function. Carrots and the like, I don't have too much issue with though, if it works. (Kal already gets carrot grated in her food.) I can't give Kal much else as she's incredibly sensitive to different additives. There's just one less bit of lawn I have to mow, I guess.

I'm glad she seems to be coming good. Not to alarm you, but just so's you continue to keep a good eye on her (which, no doubt, you do anyway!) .... Acquaintences of mine have a boxer (not to suggest this is breed related - just coincidental) and showed symptoms of vomiting. This disappeared and was thought nothing much more of. Admittedly, the dog was perhaps a little quieter than normal, but because the dog is normally well "over the top" it was probably welcomed by its owners and perhaps assumed she was settling down with age. Urine and stool output was normal. Anyway, a good couple of months slipped by and all of a sudden, the dog showed vivid signs of trouble, to the point of collapse. It turned out that it had swallowed a hard ball (not one of the owners' .... they don't know where it picked it up from). This was removed by surgery and she is now back to her "over the top" normal self. Even with obstructions, it is possible for a dog to poop. Having said this, I note your Vet took xrays which points in the direction of no obstruction (save for any which might not be able to be detected by xray). But anyways, keep an eye on Bondi and if there's more retching and/or vomiting or "not right" stools, I'd be returning him for further investigation. Good luck ... I truley hope there's nothing more to this and that Bondi returns to full health without further ado.

Kitty - Scoresby and then Boronia. You were there? Sorry if I didn't pick you out. I wasn't involved in the whole socialisation class.

So interested, I thought I'd post it twice! Sorry - server error .... ETA: My font seems to have re-adjusted itself ... that's better.

They sure do. Even one wee noise, will have them disqualified in a trial. Lablover .... this is not my 'field' so I don't understand this part - would you mind explaining please? (I'm just interested, is all ... ) BTW - Your quotes are coming along fine PS ... (OT) Has everyone's font changed here on DOL ... or is it just me??

He must have been the other dog you had and fixed up! Sorry ... Christmas work pressure really wears me out. I've fixed up your dog's name in my last post .... apologies if I've missed amending it anywhere or in any of my other posts.

No worries Hedds It's terribly hard to give advice over the net when you don't know the dog or the owner's capabilities/knowledge/understanding. Alison - good on you for putting in the work to improve Tyler's behaviour issue. The part that bothered/s me is you say Tyler's behaviour has regressed. It is possible that Tyler may remember your Mum's dog and that all will be sweet. But, in the event he doesn't relax with your Mum's dog in a very short space of time, I can't think of anything other than keeping the two separated ... if you force the situation beyond Tyler's capabilities, the behaviour issue is likely to worsen and you will have undone the work you've already put in. To this end, what about some child gates so you can keep the two dogs apart. Not being familiar with your Mum's house layout, I don't know how this will work, but it might be an alternative to crating Tyler ... at the same time allowing him some freedom to become relaxed without feeling any threat or hassle from your Mum's dog. If they do relax together (and I hope they do), I'd recommend them not being left together unsupervised ... I presume you wouldn't do that anyway. In any event, don't forget to ALWAYS be Tyler's leader ... it will be up to you to keep him safe.

Crutches ... don't know if this has been written in yet. But I had a pair of crutches with me last weekend in the ADT socialisation class. There were a few dogs who were not keen. I spent some time working with these dogs until they were "over it" and actually ended up jumping over the crutches paying them little to no heed.

Alison - an extra post as my concerns with giving you any advice on how to deal with your situation is that I don't know how profound this "fear based" aggression is. If it is very profound and chronic, expecting resolution in one session may be too much to ask of your dog. In the absence of knowing, I can only but leave the judgement to you. If you're unsure of your own judgement skills (and there's no shame in that), I'd highly recommend you seek some help from your club instructor/s (assuming they are competantly capable of dealing with these sorts of issues), as I mentioned in my earlier post. ETA: You also need to know WHY your dog has become fear aggressive and why this behaviour is worsening. I'd suggest you investigate quickly your leadership status (as perceived by your dog) and work on some desensitisation practices/procedures.

I've seen his picture here on DOL! No way is he ugly! He is as Haven says "handsome" .... the description fits him beautifully. Anne - you going to the ADT fun day on 18th Dec at Scoresby? Waiting for the roster to come down ... hoping I might get to be there. If I do, I'll be looking out for you. And if Murray comes for a holiday at Wellington Park ... let me know when - I'll specially look out for him. PS .... I THINK I might be at Berwick this Saturday - but I'll be working with NDTF students, not training ADT. If I'm there, I'll try to look out for you there too.

Alison - it's a tall order for anyone to set out a prescribed step by step plan. One thing I would recommend is that you avoid making a big deal out of this meeting. Your stress is likely to transmit unintended and unfavourable signals to Tyson and may create a volatile situation, rather than calm it. Do some parallel walking ... allow the dogs (and you) to relax. Keep the dogs separated. Go out for another walk the next day. Let the dogs indicate to you how they feel and whether they're ready to properly meet. And when they do, I wouldn't orchestrate who sniffs who's bum and when. Too much interference there can easily lead to creating tension between the dogs. You just need to be aware of the dogs' body language and know when to bring them away from each other before an altercation commences. I would recommend that you speak to your class instructor. At least he/she has the opportunity to see (and perhaps know) your dog better than any of us here. Through your class lessons, the instructor might be able to direct you/give you hints (first hand, by demonstration) on two dogs meeting, as well as advice on the very early warning signs to indicate trouble on its way. Oh - and without knowing your dog or your Mum's ... I wouldn't be too quick to remove their leads.

I don't think Cheyenne minds. I can't answer that, Alison. It's not the "norm" .... consider this: An older dog can be more difficult and take more effort (from trainers and owners alike) to achieve the level status of the course you chose. So, whilst the dog would have a shorter life span, it might take more dedication and time from the trainers to sort through any training/behaviour difficulties. When we get the dogs as pups, we can sort out difficulties BEFORE they become ingrained .... and often before they even start, and the training is smoother sailing. This would be something that would be discussed at "assessment" stage. The only silly question is the one that is not asked ..... I'm glad you're happy at your club . Feel free to book into an ADT "First Timer's Session" at any time, regardless, though (obligation and cost free ... save for your time), if you feel inclined. We'd still enjoy meeting you. You're welcome. You should see us when we have our meetings! No apology necessary .... never felt "intruded" upon. We thank you for your interest and feedback.

Sounds very much like Haven's "Loki" all over again.

Wow! Wyvernblade! With all that involvement, I'm sure to get to know your face (and you mine) very well! We will all certainly be welcoming you aboard. Look forward to meeting you.

Spot on, Anne .... the top price of $610.00 covers all levels necessary and appropriate for the dog to reach and achieve "Advance" level skill status, and also includes socialisation which runs parallel with the dog's training. This could happen with any service and/or course you would ever venture to take up in your lifetime. It's a matter of weighing things up and sussing out what you believe are risks. ADT celebrates its 20th year this year, so its history does not depict a "here today, gone tomorrow" pattern. It has changed hands in its history, but it's the trainers/instructors that are employed by it that matter .... not the ownership behind the organisation. But you're right .... it could happen. As it could for any other such courses etc. where you are required to pay a once off fee. It's a matter of you being comfortable or not. If not, then people are free to chose elsewhere. ADT simply offer the services and are happy to explain them and show them. We want our clients to be happy and comfortable with us .... not sweating on the (unlikely) possibilities of what might go wrong.

Thanks YB ... I did forget to mention this.

:D They charge to train someone else's dog on the basis of only the knowledge they have from having been taught how to train their own (one) dog? And that's the limit of their experience?

:D It's happened to me too, YB. OT, but sometimes if it's free information, people don't seem to credit it very much. When they pay for it, it's worth something and they take more heed. I think that's human nature as it happens not just in the dog training world.

This is true, to an extent, YB. Although I guess you could look at it in reverse, to a degree, too. Those that join ADT do so not just because they like its training and socialisation concepts and the help they know they will receive, but also BECAUSE they're enthusiastic to come to training. It probably works both ways. There are other clubs too, who sell limited time courses. You might pay for "x" weeks, but if you miss any of those weeks, :D . With ADT's system, it makes no difference (other than perhaps to slow the progress of your dog's training) .... you don't lose and don't end up having to pay for more lessons to make up for those you couldn't attend. There's no yearly fees either. And if something were to happen to one's dog (heaven forbid ... we hope it doesn't) there is a transfer policy too, if the owner has acquired a new dog to replace it and wants to train. There's also discounts for a person's second dog.

Thank you for your comments, YB and SR. Oh - BTW, I meant to mention that ADT have a "cancellation policy". I can't remember the exact details off the top of my head, but if for some reason you chose to cancel your course within a certain period of time, a certain percentage of your course cost is refunded. Within another certain period of time, a lesser percentage of your course cost is refunded. If you're after details, give ADT a call on 9761 2772.

Hi guys - interesting reading the various thoughts on Club prices, and I don't come in her to argue one way or the other. I've heard of numerous reactions. Some say :D at the price. Others have said .... "gee, that's cheap". Alot (or all) depends on what you want out of your dog training, and assurance that the quality of your instructors is high and broad. I'm in no way suggesting that there aren't some good instructors out there at the "normal/average" obedience club, but as has been said, the individuals are volunteers and can change, without guarantee of the next one being of the same or better standard. As has been mentioned, not only is it guaranteed that the instructors are versed to a pre-requisite standard of knowledge in dog psych., but ADT also have the service of behaviourists available at no additional cost to the members. This means, if/when a behavioural issue crops up (and you'd maybe have no idea how often it does and with how many), the behaviourist is there to be able to help deal with it in the outset. The instructors are also sufficiently knowledgeable to be able to recognise, during the course of training, when a problem is beginning .... or how a behaviour, whilst not recognised as a problem by the owner, is going to become one. This way, we are in a position to coach the owner (explaining why and how) and steer the owner/dog team in a path to avoid the behaviour escalating to a more difficult and sometimes serious nature. ADT have had people approach who have been refused membership by and/or asked to leave their club due to behaviours they had no knowledge of dealing with. They have also had people who have come from other clubs, having spent an absolute age at working with their dogs with little or no success. We have had the pleasure in being able to help these people achieve their goals. Not so long back, ADT had a couple approach them because they could barely control their dog .... their club instructor, when asked for some help, told them to put the dog to sleep. This dog is a lovely GSD and the owners are delighted with its progress. The dog is now under control, is working well within the class (rather than the very outer perimetres) and is now getting out and about with its owners more, as it is now much more enjoyable to be around. ADT is not just about problem behaviours. It's about giving its clients the best possible services with the best grounding in knowledge. It's about understanding dogs and about working out different strategies when a particular training strategy isn't working for that particular dog. It's about teaching the principals of socialisation and addressing socialisation on a regular basis. It's not just about "sit" "drop" "stay". It's about the dogs performing those sorts of exercises in the face of many varied distractions and circumstances. For one example, we have a member who joined us when she was 11 years old and her dog 5 years old. That was three years ago. She passed "Advance" level yonks and yonks ago. She continues to come because she simply enjoys it and likes to keep her dog's training "up to speed". We have other members who continue to come (again, well and truley passed the Advance level ages and ages ago) and they've been our members for many years .... more than 3 years, if I recall. At the end of the day, however, it's about what YOU want in a club. If a club that does not provide what ADT does in the way of services and/or knowledge, but is cheaper (in the long run?, sometimes not) and does "it" for you and your dog, then there is no humbridge on ADT's part. This would be your choice, and it would be respected as such. ADT want you and your dogs to do well and be happy with each other and in society, no matter where you decide to train. Sorry for the long post ..... rather passionate about what I do, I'm afraid