Denis Carthy

Denis The case is in 4 parts, I have only got two online so far, yes at the stage its at it will be confusing, sorry but the other posts will come later on that one and put ot together, I suppose one lead I can give which you would not understand in Au is that pet owners are being scammed all over the UK forums by commercial 'positive' trainers posing as ordinary pet owners and all kinds of things and then referring naive pet owners to a commercial collegue in their part of UK or themselves, UK forums are a nightmare for any naive pet owner, dogs are messed up all over the place, nothing like dol here.

It means Animal Rights Radical Extremists, theirs a lot of them in the ‘positive’ dog training chaos we have here and you can be certain they are covertly working their too. Their goal is to eliminate all animals from domestic captivity or as they call it ‘liberate’ them, they are running very rich charities which all seem to be connected to a main one called PETA, the director of that has bequeathed her foot to be hollowed out and put on display somewhere as some crazy statement about how we treat animals. You can be almost certain that your government has them under a very watchful eye, same as US and Europe for funding and taking part in domestic terrorism, here there are lots of them in the positive training areas of dog training, the dogs get so messed up and difficult to live with the owners end up putting them in rescue, it’s one of their methods to put people off owning dogs. Our government tightened the laws up on them about 18 months ago and around 3 months ago we had the first dawn police raids under the new which rounded up over 200 of them, some of their activities in US under the guise of one or other of their related charities has cost thousands of dogs lives. If you go to my post at the link below and scroll down to the links to APDT & PETA and read up on some of stories about them, make n mistake you will have them there. They are easy to identify, instead of using positive reinforcement in their training they are obsessed with the ‘words’ ‘positive training’ & ‘reward’ – they bombard the words at people which are used out of context with training anything and try and attack those who don’t use ‘just reward’, but, their attacks never have any logic or display a rational person behind them. Scroll to the links below the text on the post at the lonk below showing reports on PETA extremist activity – the person named in the post a radical Association Pet Dog Trainers UK member, they started here around 1996, they banned themselves from using e-collats 2 years before modern e-collars were invented, the person in the main body of the post itself has said on a closed forum that she would kill a dog before using an e-collar and yet she does not have a clue how to use any e-collar, its when naïve pet owners get caught up with these people problems start, make no mistake, you will have them there in Au and that’s why Ern was subject to this email. Scroll to PETA links http://z7.invisionfree.com/dogadvicetraini...hp?showforum=75

I've notified the UK that one of my cranks has emigrated here :rolleyes: http://www.petfriendlyworld.com/chatforum/...read.php?t=7938

Erny This person has bad-mouthed Denis to me and simply because I appreciate Denis' input in the discussions I have had with him via internet communications, has pinned me as having no credibility as a dog trainer, in his/her opinion. Denis Wowwww..........I only caught this by pure chance - yes I have challenged AR extremism on the UK forums, they all post under multiple IDs and no prizes for guessing they are all to cowardly to post under their own names, you can be pretty sure it's someone from UK, I have quite a few of them on my sites, I have challenged them disprove any allegations I have made, I use my real name and I always give an e-mail for their lawyers to contact me if they want to try it, no have because I can prove any allegations I have made against all of them, including one dog death and one attempt to get a pet owner who knew absolutely nothing at all about anti bark collars to buy an anti bark collar, hacksaw the contact points down and operate it on her dog. Don't know how familiar you all are in Au about AR extremists but their goal is to eliminate animals from domestic captivity (as they call dog owning ) they call it liberating the animals, hence, Animal Liberation organizations under mother PETA, it is those and the others who have been commercial scamming naive pet owners, ruining their dogs and who I have discredited over a few years on the UK net, whoever emailed you will be connected to or one of those people, some will be members here. They are especially mad now I have opened a specialist e-collar forum...so thats it summed up Erny, typical cowardly anonymous emails which typifies the type of crazies behind it...........one things for sure, the entity who sent the email was made in UK you poor guys can't escape our winging poms, hey, neither can we :rolleyes: Anyway if anyone wants to have a look at my zoo of AR Radical Extremists I have some of them locked up on a web site I have designed especially for them, entrance is free at the click of a mouse but please do not feed them logic or reason, those are alien substances to my little zoo of freaks..... CAUTION Beware of The Dog Butcher of Truro http://www.freewebs.com/moneybeware/

Hi erny long time no see - I usually validate it quickly I just did yours - no more than 24 hours but an average of 6 to 12 hours....nice to see you at the begining f our godamn wet and windy winter

Hi all down under Long time no see all.....I just revamped an old disused site of mine and turned into an e-collar info site - it's not a general debating type site although there is a facility for those who want that. It would be great if e-collar users of all levels or those just wanting info on e-collars join and just give a little of your experience of e-collars and any advantages you think they have. One thing which might be a useful Oz/Pom exchange of info is that you seem not to have a wide variety of collars to choose from, here we have most of them except TT (Tri Tronics) which I use, they don't market in Europe, I know you use Innotek there, here thats not a popular collar and we have very little feedback on it. Theres also a forum catagory for any articles any of you have written or want to put, so feel free and join and pass some feedback, as I said its really a specialist/users/trainers whatever forum rather than a general chit chat place so diverse contributions are more than welcome so we all have a concentrated source of info to turn to if we want it at any time. Site http://z7.invisionfree.com/dogadvicetraininguk/index.php? Thanks Denis Carthy

ms james - 19th Jun 2007 - 03:42 I have come across nothing at all on them 'cept that vague thing on autopsies but thats unacceptable as a source 'cause no one knows its origins.

Denis No its only public reproduction - I submitted it to our dept dealing with the attempts to ban e-collars in 2002 - there is also something in copyright law which says you can reproduce articles 'for non profit educational and legal reasons' - not sure how that would go in a test case, but as far as a private submission for educational and legal purposes its fine.

Clothier Prongs http://www.flyingdogpress.com/prong.html

Hi Akitaowner - who was your post addressed to?

Denis Totally impossible and if you tried it your dog could not learn except random behaviours by random spontaneously occurring random reinforcements, resulting in a dog/any animal with un- predictable random behaviour. No animal capable of learning something would survive beyond a couple of mins or with luck a week or so if one or both of the punishments did not occur. In other words, your kidding yourself.

Comparitive equipment in common everyday use. Halties Face Bleed – by Lofty http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/bo...%20bleed#480657 Haltie bleeding behind the eye. carene 20.04.05 13:42 http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/bo...ow.pl?tid=67379 1. - Halti hell http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/37442.html 2. - Halti Pain Lab http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/bo...ow.pl?tid=61921 Haltie Nose Bleed http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/31788.html Doom and Gloom pulling on halti http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/15434.html Haltie Bleeding http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/bo...eplyPost#480695 Stress Behavaiours above consistent with: Study - 10 mins of observed behaviours Group 1 included pawing, pawing nose, biting/pawing leash, opening mouth, rubbing face, and shaking head. Group 2 included rearing up, balking, rushing forward, and rolling on ground. Ref Applied Animal Behaviour Science Volume 79, Issue 1, 20 September 2002, Pages 53-61 Comparison of dogs’ reactions to four different head collars L. I. Haug, B. V. Beavera and M. T. Longneckerb Department of Small Animal Medicine and Surgery, College of Veterinary Medicine, College Station, TX 77843-4474, USA

Hi This might be of some use http://www.dogstuff.info/misuse_of_choke_chains_hawgood.html

Naturalywild No, i was at the APDT conference in Sept. Denis Is that the one in Canada? you missed out what repeating what Shalke said, can you tell us what she said? Naturalywild I do agree that e-collars should be restricted unless suitable knowledge and training/supervision is obtained and shouldn't be available to anyone to buy without this (along with many other pieces of equipment). Denis So firstly, what is thats statement based on, I mean e-collars come with an adequate video and certainly Dogtra, TT, PAC all have excellent telephone support - so what are your remarks based on? I ask the above because the only grounds I can see for such a statements is that you think that pet owners are thick or something along those lines, so can you explain how you arrive at the above. Do you have a commercial conflict of interests? Here in UK the commercial product known as positive training is the most dangerous form of training and has caused more welfare problems and personal problems for those who have used those services that any other single catastrophy in history, maybe its different there I dont know. Naturalywild But not the total outlaw of the device. Denis Not true, restricting them would remove them from the market.

Naturalywild I was at that conference and recall many people i talked to having issues with the research and her conclusions. Denis Do you mean the conference in Canada late last year sometime? Naturalywild I will have to review the notes and audio i have from the presentation and post back a reply. Denis I would be very interested in your notes and memory of what she said.. Naturalywild My thoughts were that she (Schalke) was very much against e-collars - Denis Yes, though its hardly surprising, she has a commercial conflict of interests if she is APDT, hardly what anyone could describe as an 'independant' study, I know a car salesman here in UK, he hopes they will outlaw gas guzzling 4 wheelers, which by pure conincidence are geting very popular and fashionable here Naturalywild someone said she had used this research to outlaw e-collars somewhere in Europe???). Denis She is in Germany and her paper only goes into Applied Animal Behaviour Science in July, others in other countries will try and use it. Her conclusions are specifically aimed at taking them off the market for pet owners, here conclusions are: 5. Conclusion The results of this study suggest that poor timing in the application of high level electric pulses, such as those used in this study, means there is a high risk that dogs will show severe and persistent stress symptoms. We recommend that the use of these devices should be restricted with proof of theoretical and practical qualification required SURPRISE, SURPRISE ;)

Erny So - if these dogs, who've been put through some harsh training, were the "types" used in the Schilder study, how does one draw a confident conclusion that the use of the e-collar during the course of the study was the cause for their signs of stress? Denis The entire study was a joke, no blinds at all for a start off, the numbers of dogs and which dogs were shocked are in conflict throughout and his ultimate conclusion to 'stop' using e-collars was to eliminate them from breeding and presumably the police can just shout "Hey, put that gun down you naughty man you" and all will end happily ever after but as I said - the Shilder study is not a reference work for e-collars anyway, worth a laugh, no more. 333 4.5 less temperamental and less forceful dogs should be bred. This also would decrease the chance that dogs make mistakes for which they could receive punishment.

Erny Interestingly, the research material given by LL in other thread "Training dogs with help of the shock collar" by Matthijs B.H. Schilder and Joanne A.M. van der Borg purports to suggest training with e-collar produces more stress in the dog. Denis It was an obsolete collar, used on extreme dogs, the paper gave any reader two choices of training methods, you either used the collars involved [obsolete this past 20 years] or you used the other methods which were- 332 4.3. “handlers of non-shocked dogs admitted that they use prong collars, and that their dogs experienced beatings and other harsh punishments, such as kicks or choke collar corrections.” 332 4.3. We have not proved that the long-term welfare of the shocked dogs is hampered. The study was not scientificaly sound and is not a ref for e-collars as the collar was obsolete, below are the dog types observed in the study - Hey - would anyone like to do some doggie dancing with those dogs - bit of heelwork to music would be fine.

Lablover Do you know or heard of Karen Overall from the University of Pennsylvania? I would greatly enjoy to hear her views. Denis I know some of her stuff, no one takes any notice of it, she has nothing on e-collars which is even close to scientific, she's considered a clown of science. Lablover Has your latest information, been under peer review? Denis I referenced it the first post, no idea who's reviewing it, here it is again - I am afraid I must repeat my questions, what are your other posts relevant to? Ref Applied Animal Behaviour Science Volume 105, Issue 4, July 2007, Pages 369-380 Veterinary Behavioural Medicine Clinical signs caused by the use of electric training collars on dogs in everyday life situations E. Schalkea, , , J. Stichnotha, S. Otta and R. Jones-Baadeb aDepartment of Animal Welfare and Behaviour, Veterinary School of Hannover, Buenteweg 2, 30559 Hannover, Germany bClemensstrasse 123, 80796 Muenchen, Germany

Denis originally wrote This is the very latest up to date research carried out at Hanover uni 1 [E. Shalke et al Lablover now writes Sorry Denis, you are supposed to be able to read my mind. Denis Are sure your on the right board – I am under the very strong impression this is a dog board, you seem to be relating in some kind of mystical psychic board style. Lablover They teach well, how to escape/avoid pressure. Denis Who do? Are you talking about mind reading gurus, psychics, hippies or what? This post is about an update study on a type e-collars by Shalke, what are you talking about which is relevant?

Denis...........scratches head......makes coffee.................reads again and.....well.....then he................ Ok ya got me, whats your post related to?

lablover abuse is just as easy. Denis I know thats what I was thinking yesterday when I saw someone walking down the street with a dog on a collar and lead - I thought, if he abuses that dog he will hang it.

Hi guys, if any e-people want more info just PM me your email - Time to rub Dr Worthlesses nose in it.

This is the very latest up to date research carried out at Hanover uni 1 [E. Shalke et al ] My understanding is that Schalke is an APDT member [Association of Pet Dog Trainers, US & UK], she addressed an APDT North American conference late last year. If she is an APDT member, and I am not 100% sure, then she has a commercial conflict of interests against e-collars, nevertheless this latest research proves that correct use of e-collars does not cause significant stress, in this case the dogs from group A were taught first which action was unwanted (correct use) Groups B & C were not taught properly (incorrect use) The result Group A ( correct use) This led to the conclusion that animals, which were able to clearly associate the electric stimulus with their action, i.e. touching the prey, and consequently were able to predict and control the stressor, did not show considerable or persistent stress indicators. Ref: Applied Animal Behaviour Science Volume 105, Issue 4, July 2007, Pages 369-380 Veterinary Behavioural Medicine E. Schalkea, , , J. Stichnotha, S. Otta and R. Jones-Baadeb aDepartment of Animal Welfare and Behaviour, Veterinary School of Hannover, Buenteweg 2, 30559 Hannover, Germany bClemensstrasse 123, 80796 Muenchen, Germany

Ruthless Also, I'd like to supply them with proof that they're less damaging to the dogs neck than the check chain or Halti. Does anyone have those links handy? Denis I have lots of solid stuff Ruthless - we have had these radical extremists here in UK and they are now very much on the run, I'll get some stuff posted on here in a few hours, its early AM and have stuff to do right now.

HiErny - they come with a short instruction which says pull the elastic band as tight as it will go and put on the dog but it just makes a real very tight fit - I then looked at their site again and noticed the bumper boy receiver has a bridge which raises the transmitter off the neck and in doing so leaves only short lengths of contact points toactually touch the skin - our collars dont have any bridge - the instructions for their straps seem to be for their receivers, never seen one they are new and not even sure they are past the testing stage with them. What I do with mine is put it on and just stretch a little bit from around the middle of her neck, if it slides up to the slimmer parts, or if she bends her head down the strap just adjusts the tightness to the different width - hard to explain properly one of those things is easy when you see them,I am really seriously pleased with them compared to the normal straps, a real boon with my dog.