haven

Is it just me or is it close to impossible to find a good vet these days? I have been to so many and have only found one I liked. The trouble is he is so hard to get an appointment with and the other vets at his clinic are twits! Please can anyone recommend someone?

My appologies, it was not my intention to be rude, I just thought it a very irresponsible statement. I'll try to be more tactful.

Anybody claiming to use only positive reinforcement either lacks education or is lying. It isn't possible because if you withold positive reinforcement when the dog ignores a known command, that's negative punishment.

jdavis! I always wondered what the words were!

Hey, maybe we should start a new thread, we're way off the origional post!!!

Yep that sounds like negative reinforcement to me However they probably claim this is ok as they are not controling the aversive. To guard against confusion, can I suggest using the initals PR (positive reinforcement) rather than PP which could be confused with positive punishment.

Rubbish! Certainly increasing leadership can help dogs with separation related behaviours but it should be part of a treatment plan, not THE treatment plan. Separation anxiety is a far more complex issue than 'your dog thinks it is the leader.'

Agree 100% Amhailte. I posted a similar suggestion a few pages back I think, unless it was another topic.

Have heard that they can be inhaled or swallowed and get caught in the throat or swell in the stomach. Never fed them and never will not because of any health risks but why not just feed the real thing? Bones=delicious and nutritious!

Well said pgm. A great trainer learns all methods and so has a 'complete toolbox' to use what works for each individual dog. You can train dogs in many ways but "The sharper the contrast between the disagreeable experience the dog receives for undesirable behaviour and the agreeable experience it receives for desirable behaviour, the easier it is for the animal to appreciate where it's advantage lies and it learns very quickly". Konrad Most, 1910.

Personally I've never seen such a dog. I use positive punishment in my training (it's certainly not the only method I use, mind you) and my dogs have personality plus. They love training and never appear remotely browbeaten or robot like, although they certainly are obedient (most of the time). Incidently clicker training is not new, it's just using a CR or reward mark. I use this too, by saying 'yes' just like you would use a clicker, because I never leave myself at home (boy I sure do feel like that sometimes though).

Agreed.

If you're talking about a big peachy coloured book, it is By Brenda Aloff (spelling?) and is indeed an excellent book.

Wanted to change this to include a behaviour problem that is not managed, because in many cases the dog suffers because the owner lacks the skills or the dedication in terms on time or money or care factor, to deal with the problem. The dog then ends up at the pound where it pts if a new home isn't found.

Yes, and being NDTF accredited, you would know Kavik that the definition of reinforcement is not something your dog likes, it is something that makes a behaviour more likely to occur or with more intensity, just as punishment doesn't mean something your dog doesn't like or is cruel, but something that makes a behaviour less likely to occur or with less intensity. IMO some people who bandy around terms like positive reinforcement, in the context that "I ONLY use positive reinforcement" or "I never use punishment" to mean I don't use a correction chain or hit my dog, lack the education to understand that what they are saying is fundamantally incorrect.

Toohey, this is part of my origional post.

When you isolate your puppy until it is fully vaccinated and many vets give the final vaccination at 16 weeks you've isolated your dog for the entire critical period for socialisation. It is highly likely that if your pup receives no socialisation during this time it will have permenant issues even if you socialise it after 16 weeks. The severity and specific issues differs and you can manage problems to a certain extent but never 'cure' them. It also makes a difference to the pups personality and general outlook on life.

Ah yes, I remember! I didn't mean that your dog would do this, but I believe (and have seen) some dogs do, it's all in the timing. I was just curious, because when I have asked people in the past they tell me things like I say NO (=positive punishment) or I put him outide (=negative punishment) etc. In my experience, there are many people out there who say they only use positive reinforcement to simply mean they don't use a correction chain and often they do use punishment, they just don't realise it. Reinforcement and punishment are all relative to the dog. My rotti can take a chain correction from me as strong as i can physically give and she doesn't care a rats. If I growl at her however, she is immediately grovelling at my feet.

Whats to question? Yes parvo is a devistating and painful disease, no argument. I said dogs CAN recover from it, I'm aware that not ALL do and that some are beyond treatment when presented at the vet. I also agree that you shouldn't take your puppy to some places and this view was included in my post. Parvo is awful but if look at the stats on the number of dogs every year that die from parvo and the number of dogs destroyed due to an unmanagable problem thanks to lack of socialisation, there is no comparisson. I wouldn't wish either on any dog, but total isolation during the critical period for socialisation is not the answer.

nana for sure, closely followed by a whole egg (i know it's not a fruit/veg but they love it)!

I'm curious, for those of you that don't use a correction chain, what DO you use when your dog doesn't comply with a known command or shows an undesirable behaviour?

I've been lucky enough to have never seen it personally, but have heard many horror stories. What I can tell you from personal experience is that parvo is not nearly as scary as an adult dog with intense fear of everything thanks to lack of socialisation during the critical peiod! By all means, avoid areas highly trafficed by dogs of possibly dubious vaccination records and don't let your dog sniff where other dogs have toileted, but don't isolate your pups during their critical period! They can recover from parvo, if they beat the odds and actually contract it. Learning during the critical period for socialisation (and/or lack thereof) is PERMENANT. That IS scary! ;)

SA or SRB as some prefer to call it now (separation related behaviour) can be a breed tendancy. It can also be genetic and if that's the case you are probably in it for the long haul. I applaud your efforts, you have taken a lot of great measures. I definately recommend bones and all things chewable. Licking and chewing increases seretonin levels in the brain, which controls anxiety, that's why so many dogs with SRB are destructive or self harming chewers . I thought I was just 'fine tuning' when I changed my GSDs diet but it has been one of the biggest infuences in treating his anxiety.

Ah yes, I wondered if that was your article in the NDTF newletter. Good work ;) I heard about a recent workshop you did in Melb via another thread, will you be coming back anytime soon?

George, If you find that feeding a vegetarien diet is a nutritionally viable option and your dog likes it (and I do believe these were your requirements all along) then go for it. We ALL force our 'opinions' on our dogs in regards to feeding, hopefully based on education and experience. Unless of course anyone here takes their dog shopping and lets them pick what they want for dinner? Doggy drive through? Nope don't think so.