haven

Actually, among other breeds, I do have a Rotti Her breeder recommended me and has been using and recommending him for years, so that's probably where we all come from.

So true....

Thanks for the link Amhailte, I'd be interested to see and try one. Of course it probably wouldn't be long before all the uneducated do-gooders get that banned too.

IMO, If vets were adequately educated in nutrition they would not be endorsing crappy commercial pet foods.

If you feed the entire egg it's ok ie, white and yolk.

I feel for you guys, really, because I too have a dog with an ongoing behaviour problem (anxiety, 3yrs and counting). You're doing all the right things, it just takes time. There are breakthroughs and there are regressions and there are times when you just feel like its never going to happen and you want to give up. When I feel this way I think back to the time when I got my GSD. He was in such a bad state both physically and mentally that I recall warning my family not to get too attatched to him in case he didn't survive. When I look at him now, happy and healthy most of the time his 'shortcomings' don't seem so short. On the subject of advice: You will get conflicting advice, sometimes from people who are lack education and are misinformed, but in most cases it is simply because there are many ways to treat different things. It's up to you to decide what combination of things work best and are acceptable to you. If in doubt, ask for a second opinion from a qualified, experienced, educated trainer.

I'd be cautious about using no bark collars and the like because you are just dealing with the syptom of the behaviour, not the cause. This can be ok of course, but without treating the problem she may go right back to barking when the collar is removed, or find a (possibly worse) outlet behaviour. Although your dog is submissive, showing good leadership is still important and is in fact beneficial for dogs with SRB, not because your dog will otherwise think it is the leader, but beause she will feel more secure and less anxious under increased leadership.

Eggs are a 'complete package', yin and yang if you will feed the whole egg rather than just the white and you won't have a problem.

Incidently, I heard from someone recently returned from the states about a 'plastic' prong collar. Anyone know what this is about?

Guys I can tell you two things specifically from personal experience: 1. The majority of dogs wouldn't require the use of a prong collar, but it is certainly beneficial for those that do 2. During the equipment component of a course I did we were given the opportunity to actually put a prong collar and a common correction chain around our leg and feel the difference. The correction chain was worse, if you don't believe me, try it yourself. It's a nasty looking piece of equipment, which has lead to people with no experience or education of their useage succesfully having them banned in VIC.

Actually Hedds, that's my current vet that im happy with, but unfortunately rarely get to see. In the event that he is unavailable and I have to see any of the other vets there I tend to leave very unhappy I didn't want to specify, because I don't really want to go around telling everyone that I think this or that vet is crap

You need to supplement with Vitamin E if you are going to give these things or the fats will go rancid in the dogs body. Someone (can't remember) on another thread (can't remember that either) talked about a study that was done giving supplaments to improve coat condition. Apparently condition improved to a point but then retutrned to it's origional condition. Sorry I can't give you specifics, hopefully somone can provide the details?

Thankyou to everyone for your suggestions Of course in an emergency I'd go to the closest vet, but I think i might try out a few of the suggested vets otherwise. My current vet is good and was higly recommended but almost always booked out for ages and the others at the clinic are morons. Julie, of course he loves jyra, whats not to like?!

I have found that dogs are a bit like a game of pic up sticks or jenga (i think it's called that), in that when you make changes to one thing, it affects others. It all depends on the dog, but I have a 5yr old GSD that suffered with enormous anxiety issues when I got him 3 years ago. As I have put a huge amount of work into getting him over these issues but he still has the anxiety I believe it is a combination of genetics and inadequate early socialisation. While he has improved immensly, he does exactly what you described: when he gets over one issue, he suddenly develops another with something he previously had no issue with. I believe it is because he has that anxiety and it has to be displayed somehow. I know it is frustating, sometimes upsetting and easy to feel like it's never going to get better! I think the best way to tackle behavioural issues is from all sides. Getting a trainer out is a great idea, but I'd suggest you go one step further and join an obedience club that has access to a qualified behaviourist. If you are in Melb I can recommend one, otherwise perhaps another DOLer can make a suggestion? Hang in there

Yes you are correct in both instances kavik. What the experimeners were not expecting was finding that the mouse that did have the ability to control the situation from the start by turing off the shock became far more confident and exceeded all the other mice in problem solving tasks. In fact, when this mouse was then put into the environment where he could not turn off the shock, he did not develop learned helplessness. Sorry still working on the reference. Amhailite, I agree. Lack of education leads to incorrect use of training terms. When people say they use positive methods, the general public perceive it in the context of positive meaning good, when it fact in this context it simply means giving or doing to (the dog).

For sure! My Rotti loves it but she is a guts, there's no carrying it around, just chomp and straight down the hatch

Yep, getcha. When you say every excersise is taught in a similar fashion, to me that implies that you start teaching a new skill using - reinforcement. Is this a correct assumption? BTW is it nearly 1am where you are? I gotta get to bed!

Yeah I know about remote trainers etc, but you mentioned that with the ecollar the dog can turn it off? how does this work and to what purpose? Or do you mean the dog can 'learn how to turn it off' by offering the correct behaviour eg not barking or faster recall etc.

Will find out for you, certainly. What is an Ecollar?

I learned something very interesting in lectures today that is very similar in fact. Two mice in adjoing cages that were wired up to a battery and given an electric shock. There was also a control group of mice that were never put in the cages and never received a shock. Both mice in the cages received the same shock, for the same length of time, at the same level of intensity etc. The difference was that one mouse had the opportunity to control the situation as there was a level by which he could push and turn off the electric shock. When he did this, the shock was turned off in BOTH cages. Mouse 2, that couldn't control the shock, became a very depressed individual and eventually made no attempts to avoid the shock EVEN AFTER he was showed how to turn off the shock by putting him in mouse 1's box it took between 20 and 50 repetitions for it to learn. Mouse 1 however, became the smartest and most confident mouse of ALL, including the control group. Performed better in all tests than any other mouse in problem solving ability tests. So, ethical debate aside, giving mouse 1 electric shocks with the ability to control the environment resulted in a smarter, more confident and more successful mouse> Does this make a happier mouse? I'd say so. So is the electric shock treatment worth the result?

Rowville is fine, as long as it isn't an emergency! If my dog is bleeding out I wouldn't want to take the half hour drive to get there tho!

I agree PGM. I think people are assuming that positive punishment is 'bad' because they consider it to be bad for humans. But in reality, what constitutes bad is different for everyone and everything and in fact, for many animals there are far more 'cruel' methods to use that +punishment (assuming the animal isn't being beaten half to death). We consider violence to be 'unethical' and yet we use extremely severe psychological punishments and call it a better way. For example: I have studied Natural Horsemanship and agree this is a far better way than the 'traditional method' because it is more context specific to horses. Do I think it is 'better' ethically? That is a BIG can of worms! I think it is unneccesary to hit a horse under most circumstances. But using NH, we use isolation from the 'herd' (which is you) as punishment. WE think that physical punishment is worse, but for the HORSE being separate from the herd is a virtual death sentence and it terrifies them because it goes against every instinct they have. So which is the 'cruel' method? I hope I'm getting what I mean across, I'm not well at the mo so it's a bit of a challenge. At this point I really think we have digressed from the origional thread!

Sound like an offering to me! This is off topic a little so I appologise, but I wanted to share: Years ago now when I was working in a stable there was a stable cat that became very attatched to me. He was the friendliest, smoochiest, most intelligent cat! He was more like a dog, he would come when I called and sit when I asked. He used to climb on top of the stable door and from there climb onto me (or just take a flying leap from the ground) and drape himself across my shoulders as I worked. He was an excellent stable cat and kept the area mice and rabbit free. I, unlike everyone else there, always praised him when he brought me a kill as keeping the stables free had been his job long before we took over so it wouldn't be right to punish him for doing it. Anyway I digress....He always presented me with his kills for me to ooh and ahh over. However, very often he brought me live mice and rabbits. These were very carefully caught and carried, without so much as drool on them. He would bring it to me and place it at my feet or in my lap. If they ran away he would patiently catch them, replace them and sit looking at me. If I let them go, he was happy for them to get away. I feel sure, based on his behaviour that he was simply bringing me 'presents.' Such a sweety.

Personally, I think the whole "positive reinforcement only" and "anti punishment" attitudes came about because people are being anthropomorphic. These days people tend towards the warm and fuzzy notion of not using physical violence Eg smacking their kids. My opinion on that is beside the point, what I'm trying to say is that because we (society today in general) abhor that kind of treatment we are attributing that to our pets. The trouble is humans and dogs are not the same. We evolved differently from different needs in different environments. Instead of using what works in humans, people should be looking at dogs and wolves for more context specific methods.

I'm halfway between Ringwood and Lilydale in VIC