haven

Zero, as an ADT member you get access to the behaviourist (who is also a qualified and experienced trainer) at the centers and if you require more in depth assisstance you get a discount on private lessons. I appologise for the fact that you have not yet received one on one assistance. Heidleburg gets such a big turn out that a trainee may not have been available. I'm not rostered on at Heildleburg this Sunday but I have called the office to make sure that you get help at training this weekend. As I have seen Tank (I spoke to your husband) I can give you my opinion of what you can do to to combat this behaviour: To be honest I believe the problem to be based in leadership and socialisation. Tank doesn't seem to be 100% about the 'code of conduct' when meeting other dogs. From memory your husband couldn't pinpoint any specific type of dog that triggered his aggression, so I recommended that you keep a diary of every event that occurs. Note the circumstances, the body language of both dogs involved and the characteristics of the other dog (ie size, colour, sex etc). This could provide invaluable information in determining why the aggression occurs and which dogs he will have an issue with. I also suggested familiarising yourselves with his body language and the circumstances under which he reacts, so that you may predict (where possible) when the aggression is about to occur. Some dogs can be very subtle but it all starts with orientation IE the dog looks at the other dog. He may then stare and focus his body posture toward the other dog. His may become very still and tense. This is the point at which you should be identifying that there is an issue and managing the situation. After this you may get lifting of the lip, barking and or growling the lunging, snapping and biting. Not all dogs show all of these things. As a management strategy I advised your husband to have Tank sit and look at you while other dogs are present at a distance and rewarding him with food, toys etc (whatever Tank likes). Keep that reward special to use only when in the presence of other dogs, so that he comes to view being in the vicinity of other dogs to be a good thing, something that he wants to occur because it is his only opportunity to get the reward. Using this technique you can gradually reduce the distance between Tank and the other dogs one step at a time, always ensuring that Tank is the one to approach, not be approached by the other dog. I think in this case he reacts and is not given any information to show him that the behaviour is unacceptable. Possibly his behaviour has been reinforced in the past, so now he think this is acceptable and possibly even good behaviour. Definately don't attept to 'calm' him with your voice or by patting when he is reacting or showing signs of reacting. If he is showing signs of reacting, I would give the sit and look command, or if you need to get outta there quick, a recall. Once he has reacted i think it is important to give him a verbal or physical correction to show him that the behaviour is inappropriate. As I mentioned I think leadership is part of the issue here, which is not uncommon in dogs that are new to the household and are unsure of their place. I'm not saying that Tank is trying to be dominant, I'd consider it more that there is a lack of appropriate leadership which causes him confusion and anxiety. By adopting a leadership lifestyle you will go a long way toward fixing the problem and make Tank a much happier dog. There is heaps of information on leadership here at DOL, on the internet and in your red book. Definately when you have Tank out on lead, adopt an assertive attitude. If you are concerned about him reacting, he will read your uncertainty which will only cause him to feel more uncertain about the cituation himself, which i believe is the root of the issue. Once you and your husband assert yourselves as the definitive leaders, Tank will no longer feel that it is his place to handle the situation. As I mentioned, I have spoken with the ADT general manager and ensured that there is a note on the paperwork for that center that you be assigned someone to work with you on Sunday. When you sign in at reception, tell the Admin person who you are and that you are to be assigned as a project dog.

We're on the same page Amhailte. I can't explain it because I have reservations about the theory behind it. I believe the idea is to give an effective correction IE one you don't have to repeat. In a perfect world you could do it every time, but in reality? The above example I agree with PGM although it is not personally the way I would choose to teach a command. However, when the method was described to me (active training in general) it was not using an Ecollar in the manner you suggested, it was command, correction, compliance, reward. I have issues with using corrections on dogs during the teaching phase. I have issues with using corrections without giving the dog the opportunity to comply. I have issues with giving a punisher and reinforcement for the same command. I'm not saying dogs can't be trained this way, I just don't think it is the most ideal for most dogs and most handlers and could have potentially disasterous consequences.

It is something that will achieve clarity with time, education and experience Akitagal. I struggled at first with the seemingly paradoxical +punishment/-reinforcement thing too. Basically it's all in the timing. If the aversive comes before the behaviour and is then removed as a result of that behaviour it is -reinforcement. Maintaining pressure on a headcollar until the horse steps forward is -reinforcing the forward movement. When you start up the car and it beeps at you until you put your seat belt on, that's -R. When you pinch a dog's foreleg until he picks it up and then release, lifting the leg has been -R. When you are handling your dogs paws and he mouths you and you keep holding on until he is quiet and calm, thats -R.

Honestly Amhailte it's not a topic I know much about but it just doesn't seem sound to me. At least it wouldn't be my prefered method and I'd have serious reservations about using it on certain dogs and teaching it to certain handlers. However it was introduced to me by an experienced and well respected trainer here on DOL. I personally think that the whole point of operant conditioning is to teach the dog the consequences of his/her behaviour. So the dog doesn't comply to a command, they get a correction. They comply, the get reinforcement. Some consider this an inferior way to train, I think it is the whole point of training. For an sound dog who knows the command and with a competent handler I can see that the method has merit. You give the command, give the correction and next time you get immediate compliance and the behaviour is -reinforced in the future because the dog believes (and rightly so) that his compliance avoided the punisher. The ecoller example you gave is pretty much 'active' training. I believe the second example is what is used while the dog is learning the command, but like I said I'm not an expert on it. NB: In my earlier post I wrongly refered to the opposite of 'active' training being 'passive' training, when it is actually 'active' and 're-active.' Am going to edit my brain bad.

Personally Amhailte, I think it is playing a dangerous game, one that could certainly lead to learned helplesness, handler aggression etc. The premise i believe is to get the dog working to avoid the punisher with the goal of speed and reliability. It is considered by some to be a 'better' way of training rather than allowing the dogs actions to dictate your response, but I thought that was the essence of operant conditioning! I wouldn't condone it for most dogs and certainly not the majority of handlers! That's exactly what I was saying. There are a few threads around where it has come up. I'll try and find them and supply the links so I don't have to hijack this one! Cos we never hijack do we guys

But what do you call the 'release' part of the equation? If the tension is released before the dog complies with the command IE the correction is a quick tension and release, it is +punishment. If you apply the tension but don't release it until the dog is back in the heel position, it is -reinforcement. The problem I have with discussions like this is that people don't use the correct terminology. EG consider those who say they use only +reinforcement. However, if they remove attention or withold the reward, they use -punishment and if they use a head collar to apply pressure they use +punishment. Because some people misconstrue the terms positive and negative to mean bad and good and the term punishment to mean hitting your dog, discussions easily become confusing and hotly debated, even though everyone is essentially saying the same thing. Isn't that right Kavik

I agree with everything Amhailte said. I also think that once the dog has learned the skill and is aware of the repercussions of non compliance, then staying in the heel command to avoid a punisher could be considered negative reinforcement. However, as I'm typing this I wonder......you're not actually removing anything although you could argue that you are removing the threat of a punisher but then if the dog continues to stay in the heel command you never actually remove the threat, although they do avoid it. *we need a chin stroking icon* I guess it depends on how you train the heel. If you use what some people refer to as 'active training' you give the command and use the correction before the dog complies, then wean off the corrections as the dog becomes reliable in response to the command. In that case it would be negative reinforcement as the dog avoids the punisher by staying in the heel. The 're-active training' way though, if the dog leaves the heel position and gets a correction IE tension and release, I would call it + punishment. Having worked with horses a lot and trained in natural horsemanship I know what you mean about - reinforcement. I would definately say that dog trainers don't use it nearly as much as horse trainers do (the ones that do it properly anyway, rather than using plain old +punishment eg if the horse won't get in the float, flog him from behind until he does). Nearly all of natural horsemanship is negative reinforcement, not positive reinforcement as some people would have you believe. That gets me thinking again on what exactly is "better" as a concept when we are talking about what is a 'humane' or 'kind' way to train an animal, but I won't get into that. It is way off topic and I have probably confused you and everyone with my ramblings enough already A rather apt time to gove you some advice Akitagal: Especially while you are in the early stages of your course be very careful about where you obtain information, take everything with an open mind and don't take anything as gospel. It can be confusing as information becomes outdated, people have different opinions and some are just plain wrong. Although i must say you have chosen a good discussion group as Kavik and Erny have both done the course. Not sure about Amhailte, but she seems to know everything anyway! Appologies for the very long post guys.

Have pmed you zero

It changed before it was accredited. I did the course 18mths ago and it was 7 months part time with a minimum requirement of 100 hours practical experience. There are still electives beyond the core modules. There were 7 core modules and 3 electives when i did the course, but this has increased as has the practical requirements I believe. It is available by distance ed and we also get a lot of exchange students from overseas at the moment.

Pandii! I'm glad your Rotti can regulate his/her own feed safely, mine would be a barrel on legs in no time

I hear what you are saying Pandii, but I personally think that dog who are resource guarders are always going to be even if you feed them in this way. Jim, I think that changing your dogs over to grazing when they have been fed by the clock thus far would be difficult if not impossible. But if you were to try I guess Pandii's way of feeding little bits at a time might do it, although it means more work in the initial stages (IE regular feeding).

Let them eat at a specified time? You probably don't need me to tell you that dogs and cats tend to live a feast or famine lifestyle and many, dogs particularly, will continue to eat food if they have access to it. Perhaps you can feed the cats somewhere above ground level, so they can graze but the dogs can't get to it?

Geez, you asked, we answered. No-one was negative toward you or your situation, people just wanted to make sure you had all the info. Giving your dog heartworm treatment if they haven't been tested and they are positive for heartworm often leads to a slow agonizing death. This was pointed out only so you could avoid endangering your dog, not to make you feel like you had poisoned him so there is no need to be rude.

Ah, I thought so but I was a little confused

With many fruits and vegetables, the fruit is ok but the seeds/stems/leaves are poisonous.

Congratulations! Did you have a name change recently or is someone else using your avitar

Someone posted a link on electric shocks for snakebites in the thread about praise vs food in the general forum (I think). Haven't got around to reading it myself.

I'm a snake groupie too Raz :p Have been since I was little. Just to be clear, I am definately NOT saying give your dog vitamin C in place of veterinary treatment for a snake bite. I'm just passing on the info. From what I have read so far it is only mentioned, there are no studies or evidence to support the theory. I got the book from natures creatures. Lucky for me (and them because I single handedly keep em in business) they're only 10mins from me but the have an online shop if anyone wants to have a look see. www.naturescreatures.com.au

Just to be on the safe side I would never ever feed a whole fish that had not been gutted. Many people release fish or they break a line and get away with a hook inside them. Wouldn't want that to end up inside my dog! I scale the fish first, only because I wasn't sure and wanted to play it safe. If it's a fish with big spiny fins I cut them off too and of course you have to be careful as some types or parts of certain fish are poisonous. Other than that they get everything including the head and tuck in with relish! I think once a week or once a fortnight is fine.

Amhailte, I would be careful of feeding too much liver because it is so rich in vitamin A. Similar thing with fish oil supps, too much vitamin A and D is not good news. Definately good for health in moderation. Lots of things can cause skin problems in addition to lack of essential fatty acids. I'm reading an excellent book at the moment called 'natural farming' by Pat Coleby. It's not based on dogs, more general stock but it has sections on each specific vitamin and mineral in detail. I'm just getting into vitamins and minerals and this stuff is blowing my mind, the issue is such a bigger picture than I realised! Certain vitamins and minerals in excess or a deficiency can 'bind' or affect the uptake of other v's and m's. So supplementing with something may be useless if something else is defficient and everything ties in and affects everything else. Something else I would be concerned about is what you are providing your dogs (or pets in general) for drinking water. With all the crap that gets added to tap water it can do more harm than good. Many people now offer only distilled or filtered water. About the snake venom: In this book Vitamin C is mentioned for snake bites, probably with other stuff. Haven't finished yet so I can't give you all the info. Plus there is soooo much stuff in here it's definately going to take more than one read for it all to sink in! Excellent read so far though, fascinating stuff!

I wasn't aware it was illegal to use a correction chain on a dog under 12 weeks (not that I would anyway). Does anynone have any links on this?

Yes, as a carnivore, a dogs intestines is much shorter than a humans or other animal designed to eat vegetable matter. Lets look at the dogs digestive system The jaws of a dog move in an up and down motion with a crushing vice-like action. Unlike an animal that is designed to eat grains and vegetable matter they can not move their jaws from side to side in a masticating/grinding motion. Their teeth, including their molars, are sharp and pointy designed to crush and rip apart, not flat like the grinding teeth of plant eaters. They have prominant canine teeth in the front designed to, pierce, hold and rip. Unlike humans, whose saliva contains enzymes which start the digestion process, the saliva of a dog is merely for lubrication. Teeth, jaws and saliva act to crush and tear large pieces so they can slide down to the stomach, often in large pieces. The stomach has a high degree of acidity - much higer than a humans - this is where a majority of the digestion process to break up the food takes place. The intestines are short and are smooth, unlike a humans which is ribbed. Food can transit fairly quickly through the intestines, particularly when it is not slowed down by the presence of grains which do tend to slow the progress of food through the digestion process. The high acidity and quick digestion time all contribute to a decreased chance of problems with bacteria. Remember, dogs (and wolves, and dingos, in fact all animals within the classification Canis Lupus) are designed to be not only hunters, but scavengers. Their system from start to finish is designed to take on large pieces of meat and bone often with a higher bacterial load than can be consumed by humans. As for a dog that has a reduced length of intestines, this in itself i do not personally feel is of major concern, but rather the fact that her immune and digestive system have been compromised and will need supporting while it regains 'strength'. There is no reason that I can personally see why a dog such as this could not eat a raw diet, though certainly at first I would be sticking to foods which were in smaller pieces and more easily digested (probably ground at first, and later building to softer whole bones such as chicken necks and wings and then larger later as the dogs system becomes accustomed to them) and making sure that the dogs system was supported with probiotics and other antioxidants. Of course I have no knowledge of this actual dog and am only going on the information provided in this thread. It is only my personal feeling of what I may do if the dog were in my care. Now lets all play nice shall we? After feeding a raw diet for over 10 years and running several major rawfeeding email lists, may I say that if nothing else I have learnt that you can catch more flies with honey and out and out confrontation tends to lead of the breakdown in discussion just like we have seen here. I do strongly believe in feeding a raw diet, have seen the benefits from doing so, and love teaching people about it, but as the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make it drink (and beating them over the head with the bucket wont make them want it more). The horses will drink when they are good and ready, as long as we make sure the nice fresh clean inviting water is available to them . Tracy www.yahoogroups.com/groups/rawbreeder Well said!

Yes, to reiterate what Anne said, have the dog tested! As already metioned if you give a preventative to a dog with heratworm it can kill them and it is a horrible, painful death! Note also that ivermectin affects a dogs sense of smell, so i wouldn't use it if you are doing any scent work with your dog.

Hark, is that the voice of reason i hear? I think you are preaching to the choir!

There are threads here on using natural therapies to treat or complement conventional treatment that I would highly recommend if you have not already seen them. There are also many great books on the subject and one in particular that i would recommend is "the nature of animal healing" by Martin Goldstein. I think the book is a must read for all dog owners. It is not just about treating cancer, it is about natural therapies, how conventional treatments work and why they are not always best, vaccinations, diet, dealing with loss of a pet etc. I would be seeing a Vet that uses natural therapies and consulting with an animal nutritionist on an appropriate diet. Many people save their animals using natural medicine rather than conventional and get many more years with them after the '3 months left' diagnosis. Good luck to you Birni.