haven

there have been a few threads on this subject with a little information. One got a bit heated so i don't know if it will still be there, but worth doing a search.

Like I said it's not necessarily a bad thing, I wouldn't kile it but that's just me. Training in two commands has advantages too but if you're going to stop using ine then i would stop now because it's going to be much more confusing when she has been fully trained in both. Or just keep using both, like i said it's your preference. Your dog, not mine

Just wanted to metion something in case you have not considered it: Personally I would not train this way because you are creating a pattern for your dog, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but I can see undesirable implications. If you use the forward command and always interupt the recall with another command then she is going to anticipate the command coming and her recall (to this command) will probably become very slow and hesitant. Secondly, if you never interupt your origional recall command with a static command, then she may never respond to one. If you are recalling her and need her to stop, she will probably keep on coming because that is the pattern. Neither of these things may bother you, I just wanted to ensure you were aware of them.

Yes I'd say that could have somrthing to do with it. I'm not saying that once you have decoyed a dog they will want to eat you anytime they see you, just that it has been my understanding that they would be more likely to be reactive to someone who has acted as a decoy then someone who has not.

I don't agree with this 100% NILIF (nothing in life is free) says it all in regards to times when your dog wants a pat or play: You want something from me, do something for me first. However, as I said in my earlier post, too much non-contingent reinforcement has implications other than leadership. Why should your dog sit for a pat when you just walked over and gave him one for nothing? For the most part, Haven, I agree with you, but IMO there is a "depends" factor here ..... Eg. Attention seeking and/or Jumping up at you type dog. You ignore. Dog stops and goes away somewhere else (because its goal was not achieved). You approach and pat. The pat/attention builds on the dog's non-attention demanding behaviour. Having said that, I usually (where appropriate and possible) suggest the owners do a recall and then they're free to interact with their dog. But there are the odd occasions when I don't recommend this. But in your example, if the dog sees the pat as reward for being quiet it is not non-contingent reinforcement. Note also that I said too much rather than any non-contingent reinforcement can have negative effects.

Since you brought it up I wanted to comment on something you mentioned in the other thread about protection training but I didn't want to hijack... You said something about working your own dog on the sleeve. I realise of course that there is more than one way to skin a cat, but most people say never to decoy your own dogs and that your dog will never be reliable around a person that has acted as decoy, so how is it possible for you? Is it because you work them in prey drive and they are focused on the sleeve rather than on the man?

It was STIMPY wasn't it To the OP, if it's a large dog you're after, don't take this the wrong way but consider how large YOU are. I have a 42kg Rottweiler and a 40kg GSD and at 60kg myself they would be hard work if they were not so well trained eg pulling on lead etc. Protection training is VERY hard, physical work. My concern is that you stated you don't really want another dog and that also just the look and sound of a large dog scares you. No offense but you don't really sound the perfect candidate to own a 50kg manstopper. Even if you decide on a smaller dog, be aware that 2 dogs somehow equates to much more than twice the work and trouble

Yes, I realise that. I figure no dog would have zero drive as there is a survival value, hence I still have hope for him yet

Steve could you suggest any alternative ways to build? Loki would freak if I tied him out and started waving something around. I laboured for months trying to get him to take a toy in his mouth, marking the behaviour and he will now, but he does it in avoidance, he looks and leans away, his ears go back and he drops it as soon as i say its ok. He's just not into toys and aside from when Wes (Nova's pup) was around I've never seen him play with them. ETA: He will eyeball and chase a cat though, if he is not stressed so I'm hoping there is hope for him

Its Dogs in Motion at Myuna farm in Doveton. There is also one in Rowville and although I have never been there myself, I haven't heard favourable things. There may also be one in the Nthern suburbs, I'm thinking around the Diamond Creek area but I'm not sure. I'd go with Myuna farm, it's a hike especially from your place but the facilities are excellent, they have a physio available and also an underwater treadmill, and the staff are very friendly and helpful.

I don't have a video camera so I was hoping to nag someone else into doing it Although if need be, I can beg, borrow or steal.....

I use the complete mix, the omega blend oil, the wound spray and the joint formula and I have had excellent results with all of them. When my Rotti bitch who had surgery recently for a ruptured cruciate was having a checkup, my Vet himself that the VAN joint formula was the best of it's kind available. I've worked with dogs and horses and dogs most of my adult life and had pets forever and there aint many things better than the wound care spray IMO. The complete mix is not all grains, it is mostly air dried fruits and vegetable and a small amount of grain (and yes the soaking allows them to germenate) is recommended by many natural diet enthusiasts. It also has added vitamins and multi minerals like Brewers yeast, kelp etc. It is available at many pet shops, but aside from my current supplier who gets it wholesale, I have never seen a pet shop cheaper than buying off the internet.

I think that rewarding her by allowing her to go back to playing with the other dogs is an excellent strategy. However, if there is too much distraction, don't even ask. If she only comes to you 50% of the time then 50% of the time she learns that she doesn't have to. Try it on lead and a distance away from the other dogs, so there is less distraction and you have her under control. Personally I prefer to leave advanced training to older dogs. While a dog of 7mths is certainly capable of physically doing the excersise, stay work and advanced commands can create a lot of stress for a dog without the maturiy to handle it.

Glad you brought it up, I was going to ask Steve if it was ok but forgot It's much easier for me to give my full attention without scribbling down notes all the time.

I use a lead for safety, so the dog doesn't 'run off with the pixies' like MM said. The lead is not there to keep the dog by your side, that's your job by using focus, motivation and teaching your dog that good things happen when they are in the heel position.

It's a bit of a controvertial topic, but my anxious GSD used to starve himself (up to 3 weeks at a time) and had no appetite. Once I switched him to a barf diet and started fasting him once a week or so it really changed his eating habits. Now he will eat anything I put in front of him and out of the bin, off the bench, out of the cat's bowls etc etc He's a very healthy weight now and the change in diet amazingly affected his anxiety levels also. Much happier dog now ETA: Can she swim or is getting the paw wet still a no no?

Are you asking about the technique of two seperate commands IE come and forward, or about the tie out on the collar to add pressure? Assuming it's the latter, it can be a technique that works for some. Some other ways to help her understand not to come toward you are using clear, assertive signals, blocking body language or shaping.

A marker is a marker, it doesn't have to 'click.'

Anytime you like. The way I see it your dogs should see any command as the opportunity to get reinforcement, not a specified time, area, event etc.

Pot, Kettle, Black. Hit the report button.

If my foundation is better does that mean Hagrid's prey drive will overtake his nervousness if he's too close to other dogs? I though this could be the case depending on the dog and other circumstances. This is the crux of why i want to increase my dog's drive, because drive blocks fear. K9, why is it so? Is it because the dog releases adreanalin in drive, or because their focus is more on you, some other reason, or is the statement flawed?

Can you expand on this for me K9? I can't see how posisitve socialization would destroy the posibility of being an effective leader for your dog and pack drive. Or do you mean that if a dog that has been socialized to associate a posisitve value with things other than the handler, then alphs status and pack drive will never be as good because you would have competition in the form of toher dogs, people etc, for the dogs attention and drives? Also i was wondering, if you have a dog that has been neutrally socialized and one who has been positively socialized to other dogs and each dog was attacked by a dog. Assuming both came away from the incident with the same issues, would one dogs issues be easier or harder than the other to resolve?

I don't agree with this 100% NILIF (nothing in life is free) says it all in regards to times when your dog wants a pat or play: You want something from me, do something for me first. However, as I said in my earlier post, too much non-contingent reinforcement has implications other than leadership. Why should your dog sit for a pat when you just walked over and gave him one for nothing?

Speaking for myself, I did not answer the question about HOW to teach a dog not to pull on lead because: 1) That is not the topic of this thread; 2) You have been a member longer than I and are fully aware there have been a multitude of threads on this topic, do a search and; 3) I felt and still feel that you are simply baiting for the sake of an argument and I have better things to do with my time

Any news Pampa?