haven

I think it would be a good idea to have a session with another trainer, someone who can watch both your body language and that of your dog to give you a clearer idea of what's going on, sometimes it can be hard to judge when you're the one holding the leash. There could be any number of reasons why she behaves the way she does when corrected and it may make a difference to your success (or lack of) with another type of collar, prong or otherwise. A prong collar isn't the big nasty last resort so many people make it out to be (as you're probably aware). I've seen small breeds on prongs, I've even seen service and assistance dogs trained on prongs, used correctly there is no reason why you couldn't or shouldn't use one in place of any other collar if that is what works best for you and your dog. Having said that, it's entirely possible to teach some dogs to walk on a loose lead with a flat collar but it sounds to me like your issue is a training/behavioural problem rather than one with the actual training aid. I suspect that even if you do try a prong with early success, the issues you are having may reappear quickly if they are not identified and dealt with. On a side note, I never understand why people get knocked for "taking the easy way out". Taking the easy way out is the smart thing to do, not the wrong thing to do. A problem solved is a problem solved, if you can achieve comparable results in significantly less time with less stress and fuss for dog and owner, why on earth wouldn't you

Just curious to know what you do when this happens and how long before she stops this behaviour and walks normally again? Lots of dogs learn very quickly that this response is the fast track to getting some attention because owners reinforce the behaviour by patting, soothing or picking up the dog. It is more often a learned behaviour rather than what looks like a fearful reaction to a big correction IME.

Midol & TB, our whole group (bar 2) stayed at a caravan park while we were down on our last trip, and this park had cabins that could sleep more than two people....we all agreed to book a few cabins and share so that we could cut costs....it worked out to be a lot of fun all staying together The caravan park that we stayed at was one suggested in the NDTF materials....can't for the life of me remember it now. You will need to take your own sleeping bag and towel though. IIRC It's Wantirna Caravan Park? I think TB went to Sydney though, not Melbourne.

This is my thinking also. FWIW, I don't believe food aggression necessarily has anything to do with dominance. All pack members, even puppies, can and do guard their food from higher ranking members because this behaviour has a survival value ie if their food is taken they don't eat and if they don't eat they die. I'm hesitant to give you any advice without seeing exactly what is going on for myself, but I do think you need to quit stuffing around with his food so you can get back to a clean slate so to speak. You could try something like the TOT, which is pinned at the top of the forum, otherwise perhaps you can feed your dog in a crate or separate area and leave him to it for awhile, at least until things settle down.

Wow, I never really picked you as a nasty or unreasonable person Pax but I sure can't see any justification or provocation for your hostility or your personal attacks in this thread.

Pax what the hell is your problem with Midol in this thread :cool: So he doesn't care if his dog wants to sleep in his crate, there's no problem with that and what's it to you anyway? It certainly doesn't make Midol a bad trainer or not inclined to use positive reinforcement in his training. Am I missing something here?

You don't necessarily have to train a stay for this, it's just a matter of making staying on the matt more desirable than moving off it. Now that I'm expecting I wanted to confine my dogs to a section of the loungeroom without actually having them in a stay every time they were in the room. It was simply a matter of teaching them to go on the matt and rewarding them for it and as soon as they move off the matt they are told to leave the room. The premise is, if they want to be with you in the room they have to be on the matt. My dogs are older and more experienced with training so it was probably a lot easier for me than it will be for you, but if you are consistant you will find that your dog will pick up the pattern very quickly and choose to stay on the matt (if she wants to stay in the room) simply because it is in her best interests. Where most people go wrong with place training, be it with a stay command or with the method I've described above, is they tend to ignore the dog when it is on the matt doing the right thing until it gets off, then rush over and start interacting with and paying attention to the dog - which is desirable to most dogs even if it's a telling off and a recommand that they are getting. Don't make this mistake, make a point of reinforcing your dog often when they are on the matt rather than taking their good behaviour for granted until they make a mistake!

While it is true that ADT require all of their trainers to have completed the NDTF Certificate III in Dog Behaviour and Training, the methods that ADT may not be an accurate reflection of everything you will cover in the NDTF course as they are in fact two seperate entities (although albiet have a good working relationship). ADT use a style of training they have found works best for the majority of owners and dogs. The NDTF course aims to cover ALL methods of training without a bias to any in particular.

Without knowing the history it's hard to say, but I would guess that what we are seeing is closer to the finished product than the beginning of training and one thing I noticed was that all of the dogs exhibited confident body language for the most part, there didn't seem to be any dogs that were actually fearful of the other dogs. None of these dogs are what I would consider to be truly aggressive or with deep seated aggression issues, they look more like they are reactive in a sense of being rude or pushy, bullying types, the kind of dog that would normally cause reactivity in most other dogs resulting in an escallation to the point where the dogs would fight but unlikely to cause any serious harm without the provocation of a dog willing to retaliate. I've done a lot of this kind of work with Nova and dogs of various levels of aggression, although the other dog is usually on lead. Some of the dogs we have worked with are much like those in the video, although a larger percentage are fearful. I've only worked her with a few dogs that are what I would consider to have really serious aggression problems and in those cases the dogs were muzzled for her protection. I think this kind of work is in many cases necessary to really rehabilitate a dog aggressive dog, but it's also an accident waiting to happen if you're not very selective about the dogs, and more specifically, the handlers you include. One wrong move and it could easily become a free for all that results in a liability nightmare for the trainer in charge

Have you looked into 4Paws K9 Training in Keilor? I don't think it's too far from the StKilda area and it's predominantly play based training I believe (although I don't think it's a trialing club) with qualified instructors.

In the situation you describe i wouldn't say that your dog will be confused, they will just not apply the food refusal training to applying at home so no, I wouldn't expect it to hold up in a situation like someone attempting to use food treats to poison your dog. Having said that, it's unlikely that even if you didn't leave food out at home for your pup that they would generalise food refusal training if the only place you apply it is at the training school.

I'd definitely at least call the Vet and see what they say, but I did have the same issue when I had my bitch desexed (just once and not a lot of blood) and the Vet wasn't at all concerned. It was quite some time ago now so I don't recall what they told me was the likely cause. EFS

With the RSPCA? Not in a million years!

An RSPCA rep turned up? What was that about?

I don't know specifically about soya bean oil, but I though soy products in general were not recommended for dogs.

Nervatona, made by Brauer, comes in a spray, tablet and I think liquid form. It's available at chemists and most health food type shops.

I'm very interested, please keep us updated on the details Kelpie-i :rolleyes:

Not sure why just ADT doesn't work, I'm sure I have had results from that search before. Try "Australian Dog Training", with the quotation marks as I've typed it. I just tried it myself and it turned up quite a few threads

Yeah but for how long does the average family dog get trained? I'd say it's usually less than 6 months. People get what they want for their dog and stop coming. Some people get bitten by the bug and turn up rain, hail or shine a few times a week every week for years on end and go on to become part of the demo team or even become trainers themselves (like me lol). Plenty of people only attend regularly until their dog reaches the standard they have chosen, which can take anywhere from a few months to twelve or so based on a number of factors. They then have the option to return at any time to maintain that standard because, as you know, training deteriorates over time. Some people come back once a month or once every few months or not at all for a year or so and then every week for a few months at a time. Lifetime membership also means that if they run into problems down the track, say their dog is attacked and develops an aggression issue, they can return and get help without paying any additional fees.

Bob looked at it under the microscope and said there were definitely cancerous cells present. He did ask me if I wanted to have it sent off for testing but said there wasn't really any need unless I planned on her having radio or chemotherapy in the future should it be necessary and as I wouldn't there isn't any point. It was a big mass though, he is going to keep it for show and tell! She will get plenty of hugs, but at the moment is snoring her head off in her crate. You can bet that Loki, OH and I will be giving her lots of love as soon as she wakes up

Don't feel bad LA-OC, there's no tension from me and I don't believe there is any from Paganman either from the way his posts read to me. Don't mistake passion for animosity, there are plenty of hotly debated topics on DOL but differences of opinion and disagreements are just that and not something to be taken personally. Sorry if my posts on this topic have been somewhat of an emotional rant One of my dogs had surgery today to remove a Cancerous mass and I've been a little distracted and stressed, so may not have been as tactful or concise as I might otherwise have been. It certainly hasn't been my intention to be rude to anyone. Jaybeece, you will get no argument from me either here or via PM, you have only shared your experiences and you are entitled to your opinion. I'm just sorry that you and your dog didn't find the services offered by ADT as helpful as so many others have. I'm also sorry to hear that Paganman and others have been put off from becoming members because they felt they got the "hard sell" when they attended their free information session. It's unfortunate that the entire organisation can be painted negatively because of that one experience with one trainer, but as PGM mentioned first impressions certainly do count for a lot!

ADT has been discussed on DOL quite a few times. There is a search function at the bottom left of the list of threads and if you type in ADT you should get lots of info. I'd give you my opinion here, but you will just read it again plenty of times in the other threads

Nova is home safe and apparently not feeling too sorry for herself (yet!) Our Vet is very happy with the outcome of the surgery and is confident that, while the biggest lump removed was definitely cancerous, he has removed all of the nasty bits. Poor girl has a one very big line of stitches on her stomach where the biggest lump was removed, two smaller patches where others were taken and has lost a nipple! Lucky she has an extra Thanks again for thinking of us, it makes me feel so much better just knowing that you're all out there hoping for a good outcome for us

Thank you all for your kind words and support Nova is at the Vets now and I will be picking her up at 4 this afternoon, I will update you when I know what's what.

Yeah fair enough haven but you work for ADT dont you or you used to I remember you or someone mentioning it when I went there a while back. So of course your gonna support them and I dont blame you for that but it also means that you dont have like an umbiased opinion. No offence meant. I've never made a secret of the fact that I have been both a paying member and later an employee of ADT, although I haven't been for quite some time now. If my opinion is biased it is because I have first hand knowledge of how ADT runs, the standard to which they hold their trainers and the passion with which those trainers apply themselves to learning and using that knowledge to help the members of ADT and of the many thousands of members who have amazing success stories just like mine (and my situation was very similar to the OPs when I joined) as a result of joining ADT. You, on the other hand, have little knowledge and no first hand experience of them beyond having attended a one off session and not being prepared to pay because less than $500 for lifetime training is too "bloody expensive" for you and your dog. ETA: ADT are not perfect and their style of training may not suit every person and every dog, it just peeves me to see an exceptional training organisation repeatedly portrayed as a money hungry juggernaut that cares nothing beyond how much you have in your wallet (and I'm not just talking about this thread, so don't feel I'm directing these comments specifically at you PGM). Of course, like any business, ADT runs to make a profit but don't think for one second that's as far as it goes. Every single trainer is in it for the love, not the money (because believe me, the money isn't that good). Most work a normal full time job and then give up a couple of nights a week and most or all of their weekend, sacrificing time with their families, for the simple reason that they care a great deal about every single dog and owner who walk through the door. My main point in posting is not in blind support of ADT, I'm trying to point out that the OP should keep in mind that not all opinions on this matter are equal. One person has had the benefit of having assessed this dog in person and discussed the dog's issues and expectations of the OP at length and that is nobody who has posted so far here. The trainer at ADT would have been qualified (as all of their trainers are required to be), experienced (new trainers do not do assessments) and given the large percentage of ADT trainers who have completed further studies in canine behaviour, there's a pretty good chance they were a behaviourist too. What bothers me particularly about some of the responses in this thread is that there is a great deal of bias on DOL and elsewhere in general about kenneling your dog for training, which seems to come largely from ignorance. Some of you have encouraged the OP to look around at other options and get a second opinion, which I whole heartedly agree with, but others seem to be simply parroting the notion that "kennels are bad mkay". A classic example here is Caro, starts off by saying "don't put her in a kennel!" and then goes on to suggest that the OP see a qualified behaviourist and recommends Erny, while they obviously have little personal experience with Erny to back up that recommendation as they are not even aware that Erny is a female and not a male. I wonder if Caro realisises that the trainer to which the OP refers to as having recommended boarding and training as an option for this dog, advise they have so casually suggested the OP throw out of the window, may well have been Erny herself? I've been here a few years now and had the privelage of discussing a number of issues with some of you. Some DOLers opinions and advise I have developed an enormous amount of respect for (while we may not agree all of the time) and some I tend to just roll my eyes at because they rarely have anything of intelligence to say. The OP, however, has made less than 20 posts and doesn't know any of us from a bar of soap. Even if they have been lurking here for some time they probably don't have much of a clue as to who's advice they can really trust, for all they know every single one of us who have posted so far wouldn't know a dog if they tripped over it. My real concern here is that kenneling may well be the best option for this dog, but they may be put off because (and bear in mind that this is probably not the only place the OP has asked advice) of the biased opinion of a great many people who are not qualified to comment on what is best for the dog, even if they had seen it in person.