haven

I've also heard that in dogs that suffer with chronic fear issues, constant stimulation of the flight or fight response results in an overproduction of cortisol which can permenantly damage the neural pathways, meaning that you may never see complete rehabilitation.

Yep, Kelpie-i!

er......there's no never option

Crate or boarding kennel. Holding my tongue about the rest

Stay safe at the rainbow bridge Toad, I promise I will bring you a fish when we meet again. I love you baby doll. You always were and always will be my best Cat.

I held off posting yesterday because I didn't know what to say but today the words still just aren't there I'm so sorry for your loss Amhailte, RIP gorgeous Monster

Nope, bubs is here, I got home from the hospital yesterday. I thought about posting in the training section for you guys because I figured you wouldn't frequent the preggers thread in OT, but I thought it might be a bit too naughty. She was born on Friday 15th at 2.11am and weighed 10lb 1/2oz. We have named her Chimaera (pron. Ky-mee-rah) Michelle. There are 3 pics in the preggers thread (scroll down the page) here for anyone who wants to check out what a cutie she is Training is going well so far, Dad gets all the pooey nappies

lol at the Bert and Erny suggestion

Awww, you got a puppy, congratulations!!!!!!!! He's very very cute ;) We might have to do a baby swap ;)

Bah, was supposed to be yesterday :shakehead: Still, I suppose I should have known she would take after me in that respect :D

Dennis is Lab and Poodle? Are you sure? L+P was always so rude, arrogant and condescending and I don't recall DCs posts being like that in his other responses I've read :p I am a little perplexed though, as I was always under the impression that Dennis was an advocate of electrical collars and now the opposite seems to be true. Has there been a change of heart or am I confuzzled somewhere? P.S. If I am, I blame the hormones :D

Gemibabe, I'm not sure if you realise the difference between the two main methods of use when it comes to remote trainers and ecollars, so forgive me if I'm covering something you already know here: The method you seem to be objecting to in this thread is that of a remote trainer or similar device used as a punisher, with the aim of modifying a bad behaviour such as chronic barking or stock chasing. The level of stimulus required is obviously different with every dog and depends also on things like how long the behaviour has been established, the timing with which the correction is delivered etc but it is usually a high intensity punisher. Note that when I say high intensity I mean as high as is required to stop the behaviour, which is definitely not the same as high enough to launch the dog into mid air - these collars just don't have that capacity! The thing to realise is that this method is usually a last resort for most people, when other methods have failed and their dog, or another animal, is at risk in some way because of the behaviour. As I think K9 said, most people find it acceptable to use a collar on a high intensity level at this point when a serious injury or a dead dog is the likely alternative. Ecollars and the like are used on the principle of negative reinforcement - the stimulus is applied at an extremely LOW level, just enough so that the dog can feel it. If you were to try it on yourself it's just a very mild buzzing or tingling sensation on the skin and rather than being aversive to the dog it becomes highly appetetive, as the dog quickly learns that the stimulus means a command is coming, which is an opportunity for reinforcement. Depending how you train, turning off the collar can become just as much as a game for the dog as learning how to achieve a click when shaping a behaviour. It may not change your mind about ecollars and you may always feel strongly about using one on your own dog, but you would be doing yourself a serious favour if you looked into it a little more and got a chance to see some dogs work that have been properly trained using an ecollar because it really is a wonderful thing to see. Used correctly they're far from the torture devices many people make them out to be! Kind of OT here but I got to thinking while posting: I have a TENS machine here at the moment ready to strap on when I go into labour and the stimulus produced is much the same as that given by an ecollar. One of the principles behind it's use for this purpose is that it causes the body to produce endorphins, which are natural pain relievers and induce a feeling of euphoria and general well being. Is anyone aware of any research indicating that ecollars have a similar effect in dogs when used as a low level stim?

Haven, to be technically correct, leg/paw lifting (alone) can be an appeasing signal. Coupled with other behaviours/signals it indicates submission (no threat) and to appease the threat. As mentioned, it must be read in conjuction with signal clusters - not on it's own! Off Topic: Have you had bubs yet??? Monelite, I don't think it was this type of leg lifting the OP was referring to. Your dog looks like he/she is ready for some sort of action....standing position with upright body as well as being slightly forward, ears forward, intense facial expression..these are the clusters you must be reading IN CONJUCTION WITH the leg lift. No bubs yet, soon I really really hope, I'm not too comfortable lately I realise how leg lifting can indicate various levels of appeasement and submission, however it is something that is used on situations where this is not what I believe is being communicated. Perhaps this is because I'm refering to the kind of leg or paw lifting that Monelite has posted, where the dog is simply showing interest in or excitement about something that is out of reach, say another dog at a distance, that it wants to interact with.

Yeah, personally I think it would be more correct to refer to lifting a leg or paw as a distance reducing signal or something similar in some cases rather than a 'sign of submission.'

Would you consider Carlin to be the 'top dog' generally? If so then seeing him react to certain situations with less confidence could certainly impact on Clancy. When the leader is apprehensive, the rest of the pack takes notice and reacts accordingly. If that is the case, some time away from Carlin, especially in the company of other dogs Carlin 'looks up to' that are nice and confident, should help to remedy the situation but there may be some permenancy to the behaviour so long as Clancy considers Carlin to be the leader.

I would like to go but can't really commit to it at the moment. I'm sure you will get to see bubs before then anyway and I'll likely be more than happy to offload her for a cuddle :D

That's a bit of a sweeping statement because the effectiveness of a correction depends on so many factors, not simply the type of collar you are using.

Do you require payment at this point or is this just registration of interest?

An effective correction is one that results in a change of behaviour. It may not necessarily be that you need to 'up' the level of correction but perhaps change the method. In my experience it depends on the dog, the behaviour and the current situation as to whether a verbal or physical punisher is most effective, or if I may do better by ignoring the dog or sin binning them etc. Check your timing too, this will affect the level of correction required and have a big impact on effectiveness because the dog needs to link the correction with the behaviour. It is probably also appropriate to reduce the level of distraction under which you are training if you are finding this is the major issue. Constantly putting him in the situation where he is going to fail and cop a correction because he isn't capable yet of working at that level of distraction is bad juju in many ways. Specifically for agility, IMHO there are much better and more appropriate ways to teach him to go slow over the equipment than using a punisher, especially a physical one, which could result in an injury or him forming a negative association with using the equipment.

I have such a bug bear about this too, it's nice to see someone else rant about it for a change

Although I'm not sure if they would be close enough for you (as you're looking at Croydon, so I guess you're outer eastern suburbs?) but you might be better off to look at specific classes for socialising aggressive dogs rather than trying to get what you want out of a class that's for something else entirely. If you haven't checked them out already, you might find what you're looking for at Underdog (speak to Cosmolo), 4 Paws or K9IQ. On a side note about the 'yellow bandana' and similar systems at clubs for aggressive dogs, as frustrating as it is for everyone it is extremely difficult to police effectively. Some people are fantastic about it but most people (those with the aggressive dogs and those without) come in roughly three categories: People off in lala land who just don't pay attention; People concentrating so much on their dog they forget to watch their surroundings; People who are quite beligerant about the system and think they and their dog should be able to go wherever they like whenever they like (IME a higher percentage of people with aggressive dogs are like this, especially the ones that won't accept that their dog has a problem, but some members with non aggressive dogs are too). Systems like this also suffer when people with dogs that aren't truely aggressive utilise the warning system unneccesarily because they are nervous handlers or their dog is excitable, or mislabled aggressive because it barks at other dogs etc. and when there are a few dogs that their dog will accept and they allow these dogs to play in view of other members, who then assume the dog is ok with all other dogs. When you have a large number of people on the grounds at any time, short of having a 1:1 ratio of trainer:member it's just not as easy to police as you would think. Believe me, you can remind and reprimand people over and over til you're blue in the face and the same people cause the same problems week after week after week. That turned into a bigger rant than I intended

Hehe, thanks guys, not long to go now!

You're correct, it's just not as easy when you're talking about an already established behaviour and belief system. This dog already knows that pulling on the current collar is doable, so if the prong works she's very likely to know the difference. In this case the OP would need to teach the dog that the "old rules" of being able to pull successfully no longer apply to the old collar.

It was a few years ago but I don't believe you will find things have changed much. I do keep a close eye on many clubs and trainers professionally because, until recently, it was part of my job and I always keep an ear to the ground for other people's personal experiences. I do know for a fact that they have a few exceptionally knowledgable and experienced trainers and that there are many members who are nothing but happy with their experiences. For anyone with a puppy or an adult dog that is easily trainable with no major behavioural issues I'd say go for it, especially if you want something light and fun like agility, rally-o, flyball etc. The cost of membership IMO isn't so high as to rule it out as a 'just pay and see' option for a lot of people, which is a plus. However, for anyone with a more difficult dog or a dog with a major behavioural issue like aggression I wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole. I honestly believe it could be a matter not just of not receiving the assistance you need but actually putting you, your dog and others in a dangerous situation, one which could easy exacerbate your dogs issues. As I said, I don't like to knock other trainers or clubs, but I honestly feel it would be remiss of me not to say anything in this case, for your benefit or that of anyone in a similar situation who many also read this thread.

I don't like to knock other clubs and instructors, but I wouldn't recommend them - especially in your case. I do know they have some trainers who would be capable of assisting you and giving you good advice but the vast majority, based on my personal experience there, wouldn't. I don't know what their actual policy is, but when I was a member there and refused to leave my dog tied up unattended (because he is fearful - NOT aggressive) I was told that "vicious dogs were not welcome". I was also told off for correcting my dog because they apparently only allow positive methods.