KobiD

I couldn't start to imagine the challenges of having two puppies developing together. It would be near 24/7 hands on action. Especially since you've described your own personality/attention to detail/tendency to over think. Ultimately it's your decision though. In regards to socialisation, I personally wouldn't try and structure it too much. Involve the animal in the things you do (and the things you'd like to do together) and work within the puppy's comfort levels. The whole process isn't about exposing them to 'everything', but rather having them form 'positive experiences'. The examples you shared earlier with animals not crossing bridges, stairs, steps, etc don't need to be formed in the first 12 weeks imo. It's more that you have a bond and trust, and the skill set to train and reward the behaviours you want. If the animal hesitates it doesn't mean you need to force it to overcome that fear, nor do you need to moddy coddle. My experience is quite limited, however all my research around socialisation indicates that the main goal is to ensure negative experiences are limited, and that in many cases, while through good intent, people inadvertently cause quite a few unwanted behaviours through over socialisation.

The more I think about it, the more I come to realise that it is largely subjective as well. The relationship between dog and handler must also influence the challenge, given that the definition of challenging is: testing one's abilities; demanding, then just about any dog can and will be challenging in at least some regard... and depending on the owner/handler, their ability and their patience then the overall experience could be defined as challenging, frustrating, or quite easy. I could sit here and name a list of things that I've had to actively pursue and work on with our puppy. The challenges faced, and also how I could envision them running amuck if not addressed. On the other hand, there have been some things that have been quite easily addressed, or not even presented as an issue and could probably form an equally impressive list.

Great hearing opinions from those who in particular have had multiple animals and experiences to compare to. It appears that challenging can be any range of things... but on the whole a more challenging dog will ensure you're always dealing with something and need to stay one step ahead, where a less challenging temperament will still require strong leadership but perhaps not as much forethought into how particular situations may unfold. Seems it falls more along the lines of temperament than breed as well. Some of the challenges you mentioned corvus, reminded me of our little humans... always trying to work out how to get whatever they want! And on that note, it seems quite a few people also seem to lack a bit of skill or leadership/consistency in that regard too.. another can of worms.

I wouldn't over think it. If you put the dinner out for 15 minutes and the dog doesn't eat. Take it away and it misses out. It'll be hungry for the next meal. If you want to offer something else at the next meal I doubt the dog has intellect to say I refused the last one, therefore I get this one. More likely it's just hungry and it has some food with a little more appeal. Double win. If your puppy refused the dry biscuits and then after it turned up it's nose you immediately gave it something better it may make the connection. I don't think anyone here is saying give the dog a choice. Simply consider adding a bit more variety under the same feeding schedule.

Thanks. I'm not fond of black dogs, and neither is the other half. She and I don't know why we got one.. Has a nice coat. It's actually got a very little brindle undertone through it. You only really see it when the light hits her a certain way and it shines a soft brown. Her sibling was pure black with a white tipped tail.

Still continuing with the training, putting a lot of work into building variable rewards and trying to incorporate more life rewards in to daily activities rather than just food. I think back when I started this thread it may have been a bit too early in her development to try and vary the rate and type of reward, and I was concerned about her being only food driven. As she's become more familiar with the environment and all the exciting things around it, learnt some impulse control, and also what my expectations of her are, I've now been able to mix things up a bit. I'm big on the "good girl, let's go get a treat!" when she's listened and I have nothing. We race back to the house and grab her something delicious. During our walks I've been starting to use a bit more leash pressure to indicate what I want. If she gets ahead I firm it a bit. If she stops and looks back we both continue on. If she tries to pull on I simply wait her out and then walk the other way when she looks. Hopefully this will translate into less verbal cues from me (leave it, good girl, wait, let's go, etc etc etc). Big effort has gone into walking in general as it engages her mind a lot and seems to be a good way to keep her busy. We incorporate a lot of proofing of other behaviours in various places, under various levels of distraction while out an about too so it just makes sense. Attached a few pics that I also posted over in the photos section, but seems appropriate to keep em here too!

She's 18.5kgs and stands around 56cm tall at the shoulder. Might fill out a bit more over the next couple of months.

Quick 1st post in this section. Our 9-10month old female mixed who-knows-what breed. Picked up from a rescue shelter at approx. 8 weeks old. Shaping up nicely.

So you would say that it is intelligent dogs are the more challenging breeds? Energy level and drive is quite variable too. In certain situations our puppy has endless drive and motivation. In others she is very casual.. I find it very difficult to shift her into and out of her drives. IE if she is very worked up it takes her a while to calm down again. That doesn't mean she doesn't follow cue. She does, but at a higher energy and rate. If she's chillin she's very much plod along and her following of cues is the same slow pace. Just trying to get my head around it. It almost sounds as if all dogs are challenging and not for beginners, in one way or another.

I think you just need to mix it up a bit and make it interesting by the sounds of it then! In comparison, our puppy is 9-10months old and we feed dry twice a day (less in the morning, bigger meal at night). It's rarely just dry biscuits though. At minimum it has some warm water on it, but usually a whole lot more. We sometimes throw a frozen chicken neck on top. Sometimes we have left over meat or stock/broth from when the family cooks up a couple kgs of chicken stock. Raw offcuts from any meat we prepare for dinner (chicken, lamb, beef, etc) but try to minimise the fatty content. Once to twice a week she gets a nice big meaty frozen cut of beef neck to eat. Any vegetable scraps (bar onion) from dinner prep get saved and added. Rice and pasta the same. Failing that a raw egg mixed through is a really quick and easy add in flavour and nutrients. We also have a toddler in the family so half eaten snacks (yoghurt, bananas, watermelon, apple, etc) also gets added and either used as training treats or on the meal. And, we've also changed flavour of the dry food 3 times between 8 weeks to where she is now.. Often 2 bags open together, either blended a bit or mixed up a bit (training and meals). Kong get's stuffed with all of the above in any given combination. However, our dog is far from fussy and will eat anything without too much of a 2nd thought.. so while not a straight comparison, the point is that you have loads of flexibility in how to spice up a meal and make it more exciting and enticing.

The reason I ask, is that my limited experience has shown some things our puppy has picked up and learnt easily, while others have taken a lot of hours of patience and practice and even then are still a work in progress. IE over excitement and impulse control with other dogs and the environment.

Could it be that the lazy dogs are easier in the sense that they'd rather sleep than actively engage their environment when they are bored, and actively engage their owner when they are not.. where a more challenging (independent) dog is more likely to find a means of entertaining itself, be it wandering, chewing, digging.. etc?

That's kind of how I looked at it too. The biddable types, while easy to train are also much more reliant on their human. A dog with a bit of independence will be more at ease with being left alone for a while, but in turn is probably more inclined to question your requests rather than listen and follow blindly. So what we're both saying is that there isn't really any easy breed. All breeds you could get lucky and get a dog that gels easier, or one that takes more input and pushes your buttons a bit more, but regardless it's a matter of what you put in, is what you get out?

A lot of this tends to revolve around the dominance theory, however on the other hand that has been shown to be debunked and isn't promoted by the positive reinforcement crowd. Is it simply that some particular dogs require more patience and consistency than others? And if that is the case, is it specifically a breed quality/temperament or just a character trait of a particular animal?

I've just been reading around certain breeds and temperaments, and many times people will suggest certain breeds as being beginner friendly, and others not so. For those who have experience, what is it specifically that makes a dog more or less challenging? What traits or behaviours do you see with an easy dog?

Great thread. Lots of useful concepts and strategies. One thing to note is that whichever way you choose to do it, and whatever you expect from your animal, be consistent. I can relate to your situation. Our pup is very scent driven (including trying to eat a lot of whatever she can sniff out). I'm not a very 'exciting' person by nature either (calm natured, observant, deep monotone voice, etc) so the whole idea of me being more interesting or exciting than the environment would be a big effort for me and not something I'd want to try and maintain. I'm also looking to instil similar behaviours in my puppy.. As everyone else has said, starting small and working on it as training vs walking will help tremendously. Observe your puppies reaction to stimulus and work beneath their threshold. If it means you have to stop and wait 5 minutes for the puppy to look at you before you; mark/reward/take another step/see calm behaviour; then do that.. It will engage the dogs mind and they'll work out what you expect before they get what they want. Another side note that I have noticed is that in the early days I had a bit too much expectation, and too much intent to get somewhere. When things fell apart instead of taking a step back I'd get frustrated and the red mist would set in. Moral of the story, keep the distractions at a manageable level (for you and your puppy). Keep the session short, but be sure to allocate yourself a bucket load more time than you think it should take!

Does he get any other variation or treats? Sounds like a pretty bland diet and after 9 months I'd be bored of eating the same things too. Also don't discount health issues. Is the puppy still having bowel movements? Drinking water and weeing? Depending where you live, it's also the start of tick season. Our 8 year old son (human child) had one latch onto him yesterday. Timely reminder to get and stay active in checking the dog! Have a read on the matter. Going off the food can often be an early sign, particularly if the animal hasn't been a fussy eater in the past.

I have expanded from collar grab to everywhere grab.. Just about do daily run downs. Paws, tail, ears, teeth, muzzle grab, collar grab. All with treats flowing and lots of praise... and I've never engaged her in a game of chase (me chasing her) for whatever reason. I often release her to go say hello to a couple of known dogs (they're on their side of the fence and have spoke to the owners etc so not winding their dogs up needlessly or being rude). She runs up to the fence, gets all excited and then I use that opportunity to recall, collar grab, stuff treats and release again. Becomes a nice exercise under drive and it amazes me how much more snappy she gets in drive. The rest of the time she's very blasé` about life. Cruises around at her own pace, lays down slowly, sits.. variable speed dog.

Thanks again Barb I think you're correct that it is probably a management issue re the licking. Looking back on it, it's actually been a quite a while since I've gone out with some high value treats to work on just that. Usually point my focus more towards food manners, games, or reward the dog for not chasing the go cart/pushbikes. Always something, but I've been working more during life than actual training scenario. The older son (8yo) is getting it worked out, and has learnt to stand his ground and time his responses. IE stops play if she gets rough or accidental tooth contact occurs. Doesn't give her attention when she's excited until she sits down. I have been working the collar grab into feeding time routines and general recalls. I often simply put her in a sit-stay and then work them. We do this at home, on walks, and in the dog park. She obviously has the ability to break the stay but in general it's quite solid. We haven't worked on any restrained recalls; something we probably should. At a near by park she often see's other children and is learning to control her impulses and that just because people are around that she doesn't need to see them. She's also becoming much better with her dog to dog interactions. Time time time. Train train train.

Would love to hear more regarding the game! and also any thoughts or advice you have regarding redirecting the licking. She seems to target my daughters face quite a bit. Perhaps she thinks of it as a game. I don't think it's an appeasement or trying to create space as it's never in the context where the child approaches the dog while the dog wants peace. It's always the dog approaches child, and initiates face licking. I'll redirect the behaviour elsewhere but she tends to try and find her way back. In the event that the little one lays down, sometimes the dog will then roll on the ground and try to nuzzle her head in under my daughters to lick away. As previously, the reaction from the little one can vary between not liking it at all, to thinking it's the funniest thing she's ever experienced. In an instant the other day she also managed to zoom into my sisters 1yo, knock him over in the grass, double back and lick him a few times. She's always wanted to lick him a bit too, and always seeks it - is never put in a position where the children close in on her space. Might be left over food on the kids faces driving the behaviour a bit too.. as well as the convenience. With me I'll let her lick my under the chin a few times and then tell her that's enough. I can lay on the ground and she'll either respect my space, or try to lay across me with her favourite toy like a little lap dog. Same if I'm sitting, she'd rather curl up in my lap than come and lick me.

From the TOT sticky, Quoting Steve K9: the back tie teaches dogs that being tied out is ok, like when you go for coffee etc, teaches the dog not to whine etc... Its essential that the words yes & "ok" be used. I dont use commands like "eat" or "go get em" etc. I use a free command, my word is "ok". This extends into other styles of training as does the marker yes. It isnt about sitting & waiting for food, its about getting attention & teaching the dog its a positive thing, then adding obedience commands, many as you like... Then taking this program training anywhere you are... The position of the food, the way its presented also have a strong impact... You must create food drive, or you lose the effect... So yes I would say start from scratch, like I said its far from simple as it looks on the outside. So asking for a recall or interrupter sounds totally feasible, given that the dog hasn't already commenced eating. I figure once she's eating that's her time and I leave her to it.

It is training in drive yes, but not necessarily about just waiting. It's about using the temptation to first learn impulse control (waiting) and then to follow cue with the end reward being the motivator. As above, I'm not saying that I let the puppy access the reward and then pull her off to start the whole process again. It's as simple as I might have her sit, wait, place the bowl infront, ask for a stay. Walk 20m away, ask for a recall, sit, paw, lay down, stay, walk 10M away. Release, but half way call for an interrupter (wait, leave it, come, etc) thus teaching that even when she's in full flight towards something she really wants, that it's still in her best interest to listen. When she does she gets a bit of extra goodness along with her meal. Makes sense to me. The way I understood TOT is that it's not static.. that it allows you to continue building and training skills while using the same principal you started with to get the patience and 'game' started.

TOT It's a sticky on here. I agree with you all that once I release the dog into the meal I tend to let her enjoy her 5 seconds of inhaling alone, and let the rest of the family to also know to leave her alone. There is no set routine here other than she doesn't eat until I release her to eat. Sometimes I'll use that time to proof behaviours. Sometimes I'll just let her make her own choices. Sometimes I'll make her sit and wait with it right infront. Sometimes I'll ask for a sequence of known behaviours (in any random order). And of course there are times that the rest of the family does the same thing. I could just let her eat, but I see it as a great exercise of training in drive, at peak motivation where she can see the reward and is highly excited about working to achieve it. I find it valuable and also in the sense that it keeps her knowing who controls what resources. I'm not talking about interrupting her half way through her dinner with a leave it, but during the lead up, if I release her and then change my mind, it's good to know she'll turn and listen. A handful of extra treats get delivered and then back to enjoy her dinner. Still feels a bit nasty sending mixed signals, but it isn't something I would do daily. Just wondering if anyone else see's the value in it? I do frequently interrupt her in play and with her kong/bones and ask for a drop it, leave it. I'll have a look, give it back and walk off to leave her to it. Again, it's not a constant thing, but I feel she should be conditioned to share it as it reinforces that I'm not there to take from her, simply to check in and make sure all is well before she goes back to it.

What are your thoughts on releasing the dog to eat, and then asking for a leave it, before releasing again? Cruel, or a good way to solidify the behaviour? Clever dog is more motivated by a quantity of food vs a small or even several small rewards. A healthy bowl of dinner changes her demeanour much more than a handful of sausage.

Roger!! I've only had a few moments where she's been over the food threshold and it's usually been at developmental milestones and got the spooks over something. Ie the other night walking in the dark and there was a flickering street light. Something spooked her a bit and had to move past it before she'd focus on the food again. Only took a few seconds to get her settled though. Other than that I haven't seen her turn her nose up at anything, and I've only really witnessed her tuck her tail a handful of times aswell, so fortunate in that respect. She's coming along quite nicely I think. We can get past other dogs on the street, although she'll usually turn back after we've passed and watch as if to say can I go play! She's listens to leave it when seeing distractions (cats/birds), and she'll happily sit outside a fence with a dog barking at her on the other side and listen to what is being asked. Dog to dog greetings are still very high energy (albeit she still listens for treats, will sit/lay down on cue right infront of another dog), but doesn't have the duration to maintain it or the ability to calm herself into a nice gentle greeting. A couple times when approached by other dogs who are off leash she tends to be calmer/submissive/cautious in how they greet.