KobiD

It was an isolated case at the vets. Not sure what got into her. She hardly ever barks, unless if she's seeking attention and at that time we just ignore her and make it well known it won't work for her. With other dogs on the street she doesn't bark. With my parents dog, off leash free for all playing she'll still follow command. She did have a bit of a bark at their dog but it was when the older dog had had enough and was trying to rest and she was trying to get a raise out of her. Separated them again, showing the little one it's not the way to get results.

Some great advice. All have and continue to work well in certain situations. Always dependent on her level of excitement. On our walk this morning we came quite close to another dog, and while she showed playful interest, she continued to listen and move on, which lead to much praise and a handful of treats. Excitement varies depending on the particular day, how much exposure she's recently had to stimuli, how physically/mentally worked she has been already. Just taking it one step at a time and trying to keep it all positive. If she stops listening or is over excited we don't progress. For example when I got home from work tonight I was going to walk her, but she was far too excited (rest of family got home just as we were about to leave), so excitement to see the wife and kids meant we simply worked in the front yard using them as the distractions and rewarding positive interactions. A few cars passing, other kids running by, birds, and even a pushbike, all handled without any pulling or barking! In general she's pretty good! and it's great that we still much to work with without venturing too far from home. She's just very excitable!

Thanks RP. I wasn't getting stressed and definitely didn't get up the pup for the way she behaved. It just got me thinking how to move forward with it. The area we live in has a pretty high dog population. Almost any given morning there will be numerous people out walking their dogs, and our yard is sided by 3 other properties all with dogs. Typically she is well aware that there are other dogs, and excited, but doesn't particularly pull or bark. More of a 'look dad!! a dog!!'. I can give her a 'let's go' and she'll happily follow as we move onto the next exciting thing to explore! When I speak of thresholds, I simply mean walking into a room with dogs mere meters away was more than she could process. I think I should start bringing some nice meaty treats and use them as special rewards in public when she does particularly well. The plan of attack is to spend a bit more time in the neighbourhood now that she has had her final booster, working around, but not in direct proximity to other dogs and people.

Another week, another challenge! Today little pup went in for her 4 month vaccinations at the vet. We've been socialising her in line with Steve K9Pro's sticky at the top of this subforum, in that she is often exposed to other dogs in public, but kept outside her threshold. Aware of what other dogs are, but not self rewarded by getting wound up. She also gets to practice interacting with my parents ACD who is very good with showing her boundaries and play. Anyway, to cut a long story short, the moment we got there she saw a couple of other dogs and started barking and pulling - I assume excitement, but in hindsight I didn't particularly pay a lot of attention to her body language. Quickly refocussed her, moved outside again and worked on some training to pass some time. These dogs came out, walked past, and while she didn't bark she did want to play a lot. It was managed though. Inside and into the vet, and all went well. The whole time well over threshold though, absolutely overwhelmed with the scents, people, and new environment. We walked back out and there were around 4 other dogs in the waiting room. She began barking again, and of course all the while I still had to try and distract her, not reward her, and make the payment. I moved around the corner of the service desk to block her visual which helped some, and a staff member also came and paid her some attention to distract her from the other dogs. Managed to scramble through the payment and then back past everyone while she carried on. I don't want this to be the norm, particularly as she gets bigger and stronger. I assume it is likely do partly to immaturity, being over threshold, and a lack of training in the presence of other dogs (increased distraction). Any advice or suggestions? What do you do when you know something is going to push your dog over threshold, but you have to do it anyway?

That makes perfect sense. The arousal and emotional state particularly makes a big difference for sure, and if I understand correctly that is part of the proving process. Increasing levels of distraction and varying environments while seeking certain behaviors. There is no quick fix for this other than putting in the time and building the focus gradually. I can certainly see that during the span of a day the dogs emotional states change greatly, from first thing in the morning when she is a bundle of energy, both physically and mentally, and also hungry which makes her very food driven. This is when I like to actively train, with food and toy rewards. I should probably get up earlier on work days to give her a good go of it. During the middle of the day it's too hot and the dog is very relaxed in nature, happy to laze around, stick in the shaddows and just generally tag along wherever I go (if not curled up asleep somewhere). Afternoon energy changes again as the kids get home, the schedule gets busy, dinner time, etc. I try to give her a good play as it cools off, working on leave it, drop, fetch, etc. And then once she's burnt off some zoomie energy do some training with the children and dog, depending on all of their emotional states (mine included). Have been steadily trying to vary the rewarding and making sure I'm not predictable, although I try and keep some extra tasty treats for strong recalls. Has anyone experimented with using certain rewards to improve responses? Ie, a slow sit only gets a piece of kibble. A better one maybe some watermelon?, and the fastest sits get some fresh meat?

Supercoat puppy + something. Either some chicken liver/hearts, some offcuts, or left overs (rice usually).. or a fresh egg cracked on. Carrot peels etc usually get held during prep and thrown in to add some flavour and textures to the meal. Also gets some yoghurt and fruit in the kong with a bit more kibble most days, and a soup/brisket bone to chew a couple times a week (under supervision).

Great advice TSD. Appreciate your input!

And further to last, I also know people who simply turn up to work, to do very little, and only for the 'pay'. I guess what I'm saying is that I would like my dog to have good work ethics, rather than a sense of entitlement.. Could say the same about a lot of people too. Haha The other aspect is that we also get paid weekly/fortnightly. I don't expect to be paid after I finish each little thing throughout the day. I'd think the same true for the dog, which is kind of what the thread is about. Varying the rewards and frequency so that the animal feels valued and respected, but not just paid off with treats for each and every thing it does throughout the day.

No offence taken, and I do agree with what you are saying too. In the event that she played up that morning, I don't think I was asking too much from her, but I do know in hindsight that my patience was lacking and she probably picked up on it. As of this morning she's lost her 2 front teeth, so I believe some teething was definitely pains were definitely involved that day which would explain her change in behaviour a bit as well. Fully aware respect is a two way street. While my post above might sound like it's my way or the highway, I think that the standard of behaviour you accept will be the standard you achieve.. and to be honest, I don't expect too much of it. This was a behaviour she's been doing since almost the first week we got her (8 weeks old), so I did have some expectations of her to perform. I like your analogy of work. If you give the dog something she loves to do, she'll do it for the love of doing it (self rewarding behaviours). If you give her something she doesn't really enjoy she won't be so keen in doing it, however if you follow that with something she does enjoy it will sweeten the deal. A means to an end, and revolves around the end being worth the effort involved. I know I'd rather do something I love doing for free, which highlights the importance in finding some games, etc which the dog finds rewarding in itself. For ours it's tug.

Great reply. I don't know what was up, but the particular day I started this thread we was a particularly challenging one with her. I think she was just off (or I was and we were feeding off each other). We both seem to be back on track again now though, at least for the moment. Could you define what a response cost is? I don't particularly agree with the whole "would you like a reward?" I see it more as "I've nicely asked you to do something, and I expect you listen, respect, and if you're a good girl you'll get a reward." I also feel that her choice to be defiant needs to have a consequence, not simply that "oh you wouldn't like a treat! OK!". But as you've said, there are times you'll enforce this more than others. As my partner and I often say when the kids are testing us .... "choose your battles!". I'm not advocating punishment, but do believe in discipline/consequences. If that is as simple as taking my attention away and it works then that's great (and is what I have been doing). If it means a NRM and lack of treat then I'll apply that too. I don't think I was asking too much for the puppy to sit and stay while I moved through the door without having a treat on the ready.. But then again, in that particular moment I obviously was, and these things will happen from time to time. Overall she's shaping up quite well and each day starting to feel more like a dog and less like a puppy.

The door generally doesn't present as a problem. I can often put her in a sit stay and leave the door open, stroll through and back. It's just this morning she decided to ignore the sit and kept moving over to the door and blocking. She wasn't being over excited or jumpy. Just getting in the way and when I'd try to open the door she'd try and push through. When I'd pull her back she'd mouth. She has been stupid mouthy today in general though. I do suspect she's teething. With a pocket full of kibble she'll do almost anything you want, but she clearly shows focus on the treat rather than me. I had been using her name as 'look at me' and does turn to look every time I say her name, but if I stop marking and rewarding as frequently her willingness to play the game declines too. I feel torn between 2 evils. If I try and change up the rewards too much too soon it'll teach her she can ignore me and get away with it. On the other hand if I reward all the time I'll end up with a dog that ignores me when I have no food regardless. Perhaps I should continue marking and rewarding often, and then worry about phasing them out a bit as she matures more!

So at this stage in development you wouldn't be concerned about over rewarding with treats or games? She does respond very well to it, but I'm just concerned that she will become dependent on treats. I see signs of her expectations already and kind of wanted to nip it in the bud persay. We've been pretty consistent in ignoring behaviours that we don't want, and rewarding what we do. There is usually someone home most days, so the days are filled with opportunity for short sessions. Puppy isn't very clingy and very independent.. it makes withdrawing attention not a very strong motivator/consequence. We spend at least one session on leash each day doing loose leash walking and basic obedience. I have another thread running too, so also have a couple of children to balance into the act. Today has been a more challenging day.

I guess the challenge from my point of view, is in how to introduce the VR while maintaining skills. Everything I have read around positive reinforcement suggests you cannot give too many treats when learning a new behaviour, and definitely not when training temperament (touch desensitisation etc). On the other hand, there are many search results for dogs that only perform for tricks, and how to change that through varying the rewards (both type and frequency). I see it as something that will need to be implemented gradually to get best results, but getting the timing right on skills that are still not proved is tough. Would you simply continue treating heavily across all situations, or only the ones that require it? Or am I overthinking things?

I haven't worked on her going to get her toys or to fully retrieve. The tug toys and such are kept out of reach and only used when in the presence of a human under rules. Leave it, drop it, get it. We use the game as rewards too, but for this dog her currency is food. I haven't seen her turn her nose up at anything yet. Have dry treats in my pockets most times, sometimes she gets them, sometimes not.. I have been mixing where I will offer treats from hand, thrown to find, scattered, placed on the ground and told to leave until the OK cue is given, sourced from a closed hand, a bowl of treats on a bench/table, or as above told lets get a treat and then I go get one. I will try going for a game of tug or such next time she won't listen and try and engage her in another drive. Might be enough to drain some excitement and refocus. She's also sitting between 3 and 4 months at the moment and hasn't lost any milk teeth, so I'm sure they'll be coming soon. Might explain why she's been a bit more mouthy these last couple days too. She gets a pet as rewards too, or a scratch, but sometimes she doesn't really dig it if she's in food drive. When she's resting she loves to crawl into your lap and have a snuggle. Different rewards at different times. What would you do if you had to get through the door and the dog was meant to stay on the other side of it and wasn't listening?

Thanks for the link, and the suggestions, but neither answer my questions. I have been doing that, mixing it up and being unpredictable in both the values of treats, the requirements to get the treats, sometimes I have treats which the pup doesn't get, and sometimes I go and get her a treat while she sits patiently at an open door knowing I don't have anything. But how do I handle the situation where I have asked a behaviour and she doesn't comply?? I only ask once, and if she doesn't comply... then what? All I am asking is a sit while I open the door. It's not opening until she stops thinking she's coming through the doorway as well. Physically holding her back leads to mouthing and frustrates me. Probably more than 9 times out of 10 she displays the behaviour I'm after.. but I'm not certain how to handle the 1. It usually occurs in the morning after her breakfast, so could be a) she wants more attention, or b) more food. I guess I can try and be more patient and offer more attention for a bit before coming back inside.

Our little puppy is very food motivated, and as such has been very fast to learn with even dry kibble presenting as high value. She has very good impulse control as well and is very well mannered around food and treats. Doesn't jump or snatch, drops into a sit or down usually without prompting and focus for days. I have been giving rewards for inconsistently, and increasing the duration or difficulty of the task and rewarding as to what I believe is fair. All of that appears to be going well. When we move into a different environment it shows that she hasn't got everything generalised yet, and we often take a step back and I reward more freely until I see progress happening. The problem is that she seems to know when I have access to treats and when I don't. I have seen her focus on my hand rather than eyes at times, or glances back at forwarth. I have let her know I that sometimes I have treats, and she doesn't get them, and other times I don't but good behaviour will result in me going to get one. This seems to be received well also. However, at times when I don't have anything and she is feeling rather determined, she follows her will rather than the cue (verbal or hand signal(backup cue)). I'm lost as to what to do in this situation. I have tried physically placing her into position, which has mixed results. Sometimes she complies, other times she sees it as a game and mouths away at me, which only frustrates me more that now she's not listening and also doing a 2nd unwanted behaviour. I usually get the grumps and walk off giving her a time out, but she really doesn't care that much. She's not clingy/needy and somewhat independent (has its benefits as well!). So what would be suggested here? I don't want to go back get treats and then try again as that only reinforces that she will get me to get treats if she doesn't listen. I don't want to get frustrated or mouthed, and I don't want her to learn that she can choose to ignore cue's when it suits her. I also don't want to have to carry treats 100% of the time. Like always, this happens when she is either overtired, or excited, more often than not. I often have treats in my pocket, I could always fake to grab some. I know she see's this as a visual cue that something is coming, along with my body position and posture as well. I try to mix it up and keep her guessing, but she still knows how to read me quite well.

Great advice above. I'm finding that true too. What works in one instance doesn't necessarily work in another.

I've just been through the same thing. Ours is a staffy x and was a real mouthy little girl. Ankles, feet, thongs, shorts, hands, etc. Also really likes to play tug, we use a long rope, and use it for training as well. I think you'll be fine as long as you set some boundaries with the games. Same as with normal mouthing, if teeth contact skin the game stops. If teeth stay on the rope, the game continues. Sometimes in the afternoons the crazies would kick in, and not much would help other than some time for pup to wind down alone. With the tug toys, work on the leave it, drop it, sit, fetch, etc. Use the toy as a reward and be mindful of the dogs excitement levels. If he becomes over stimulated have a break. With the mouthing I have found lots of praise for not biting has made the biggest difference. Hand towards the puppy, teeth and I break contact and do my own thing, a slight touch and she gets a reward, and build on it. When I break contact I use a noise, but you're firm no should be sufficient too. Just be consistent, and try not to get too frustrated. I know I did at times, particularly if I was trying to get something done and the puppy would persistently try to nip. It gets easier the more time you put in rewarding desired behaviour, and ignoring/correcting the others. With the tug toys I keep them out of sight, and am the one to initiate the game, and the one who decides when it's over. Building on the dogs impulse control by making him wait until you release him to play, and then redirecting on command will help with the nipping of people too, in that you'll have been training in drive so when the dog does get excited he'll be more familiar with knowing that its OK to be wound up, but to still listen to cues/commands.

Just a quick update. Have been putting in a couple sessions when the time is right and seeing improvements already. Puppy has started to associate licking the kids on the hand with reward. Works well as the kids get kisses, opposed to being pushed over. The little one is still a bit too green to give a command and follow with a treat reliably, so mostly I let her just do her own thing and mark and reward the puppy for positive behaviour and separate them/redirect when puppy is being a bit over excited. Our son hasn't spent a whole lot of time since school is back, but gets at least one feeding session to call his own. We attempted to all go for a walk today, but didn't get out of the driveway. Too much excitement had the dog unable to focus on loose leash walking and wanted to pull after the kids, so we stayed in the yard and worked on some heeling and frequent directional changes instead while the kids acted as the distractions.

It's all good. I'm understanding what's being said and would like to think intelligent/observant enough to see what works and what doesn't and how to modify to get results. I'm appreciating all the input and advice given thus far!

We're up the pointy end of the state. Shouldn't be too hard to implement the collar grab game. Have essentially got it half done, in that she'll sit and allow me to reach under her chin to clip/unclip the leash without any contact or input from her.

Thanks for all the advice. Few good ideas re collar grab too. That is definitely something I can work on, as she's very likely to get mouthy if reaching for the collar when she's excited. It's not aggression, just 'oh a hand!! let me grab it' .. her bite inhibition is coming along nicely, as is her impulse control in general. Marking the collar grab as a reward moment sounds like a good plan. Much like general desensitisation to physical contact. Her recall is building by the day, as is her ability to interact with the children. For those with kids, witching hour can be enough of a challenge handling the little people, let alone adding an animal to the mix. Every day presents opportunities to learn.

Not so. Training is varied and isn't structured sessions as much as it is testing for wanted behaviour randomly throughout the day in whatever situation we are in. Sometimes a little distraction, sometimes more. But once over threshold things fall apart. She still gets ample time to express herself in her crazy ways. Her play area has a couple of coconuts and palm fronds which have been trimmed back, and a couple of cardboard boxes. She's free to rough and tumble, chew and thrash them around as much as she wants. When I'm in the yard with her she can zoom and run and crazy and do what she wants as long as it's not my body she's using as a pin cushion. If she crosses the line with me though it's easy for me to step back and redirect to a more desirable behaviour and if she doesn't play that game I simply leave her alone to cool off. It all highlights that we just need to do more work with everyone involved and raise her thresholds some more.

A finger pop on the nose does very little to deter this pup. She's strong in the head/determined and physical corrections either don't work very long, or don't work at all. Stepping in between she just refocusses the mischievous behaviour back towards me. Separation is what allows the calm down. I've found having her on leash while interacting still allows them to interact normally, however if she goes to jump I can take the edge off it, and refocus her a bit quicker. On the bright side she is very tolerant of touch and doesn't react to the odd pat that's a bit too firm or cheeky tail pull. Have been conditioning/desensitising her to this to a large extent as well, but naturally she is just a really confident pup. Loves to climb in your lap for a cuddle (but will mouth your arm if you don't have something else for her), and likes a belly rub. Have been trimming nails etc and general grooming without issue as well. We have been training a leave it (move away and look back at me), off (get off the chairs, off the kids, 4 feet on the ground), drop it (spit it out).. She's not an overly jumpy dog to be honest.. it's just the implications of when she does launch herself at the little one. The toddler doesn't really get worked up/scared. She just waves her arms and tells the dog off or at times has laughed her head off that she's been pinned against a wall and having kisses on her face. Regardless of the outcome though, having the pup jump up in her face isn't something I want in their interactions. Sometimes the commands work a treat, other times child/dog are over their threshold to effectively listen.. which leads to the next point. Witching hour!! This sums it up perfectly. It's always late afternoon if/when this happens or after too much time together. I've noticed keeping it short and calm, quick sessions where dog is under threshold and the children have a specific goal to achieve (feed puppy, take the rubbish out, etc) that we can manage it very well. I've found taking the puppy for a walk around the block on leash, practicing loose leash gives her a good mental and physical outlet for her behaviour. Kids would love to come along too and that can be a battle of it's own.. If you look at the behaviour and interaction it's definitely time dependant. In the morning everyones full of beans, high energy, excitement.. Morning through mid afternoon allows very positive interaction. By witching hour it's not worth trying. And shortly after they all seem to fall over and get to bed.

Thanks for the kind words. We definitely have the dogs and children separated unless supervised. I think the key is to approach it in short manageable sessions. A few minutes here and there and then build it up, the same way you would when teaching a dog anything. We also have a purebred ragdoll which is an indoor cat only. Sessions between the cat and puppy have been often, and always with lots of praise. She hasn't shown any real desire or drive towards the cat at this stage, but the cat is so mellow that he hardly inspires a response. My post last night was after a somewhat challenging day/evening. Good to write it out and reflect on it, with a clear head and a new day. We've started implementing the ideas already and today has gone much smoother.