Mana

Though mine will still go inside if left to it, they will readily run outside for a pee when called to piddlepiddlepiddlepup - and have done so since they were about 5-6 weeks. It was a pretty amazing sight, at the carer's house, seeing three different litters of pups all charging outside and squatting! Unfortunately though we've got the "piddling-outside-on-command-is-good" down pat, we just don't have the "hey - but inside aint so good..." bit as polished... ;) So I was right? you found a pup after the parvo horrors? eta - any suggestions Erny? I see you there...

When pups are older, and you're praising like crazy when they piddle / poo outside, but still only making very gradual improvement... Is it ever safe to tell them off for going inside? At the moment I think I'm going to have to start picking Ruby up and taking her outside mid-piddle if necessary - she doesn't stop for anything else - it's just that I so rarely catch her in the act - I just find the puddle afterwards.

I'm afraid that I'd expect it to take a while yet! I have 2x five-and-a-half-month-old pups who still sometimes toilet inside if the fancy takes them. This is of course largely due to "gaps" in our vigilance, particularly with having two pups of the same age plus currently two other adult dogs in the house (who are completely housebroken), and floor surfaces (slate) that mean it's not such a disaster when it happens (they will piddle when taken out, and know the word "piddle", but still have no hesitation to pee inside (and very occasionally, poo)). However they will not toilet in their bedding, crates, or in the car. Also the living area of our house is large and open plan, broken up by furniture - so lots of little "nooks" that are secluded piddling places! Also I think it's not been helped by the fact that the house where they spent the first few months with me had almost identical surfaces both inside and out - tiles / pavers - and the door was nearly always open, hence little distinction between what's inside and what's out. They get far less reliable when we go back to that house. I guess none of this is really what you were asking about - but point being it can vary immensely. I've never had a pup take this long before - and still not seem to have any concept she's doing the wrong thing. It's getting to the point where I think we'll have to tell them off on the rare occasions we catch them in the act, because trying to startle them has absolutely no effect - Ruby will finish her pee then wander over to sniff you as if to say "what's all the fuss about?" I'm not sure how it can be sped up other than increasing your vigilance? For us that's simply not possible - we cannot be watching them both all the time. Another question then, to add to this trio of posts... when reinforcing toileting outside has not been effective, how do you go about discouraging inside toileting without making the dog anxious or likely to hide from you when she needs to go?

I think also the form/shape of the claw makes a difference. The foster failure lab I have here has both front dew claws, and they are a bit floppy but don't stick out to the sides as much as others I've seen. When he was at the vets after chowing down on a kilo bag of liver treats she said if they had stuck out any more, or if we noticed them catching on stuff, she'd consider taking them off. Whereas my pups' dew claws sit very close to their legs and their vet doesn't want to remove them when they go for their desexing next month.

I left Sydney yesterday but will be back up in about 3 weeks. If we can track down any / all of the footage I can PM my Canberra postal address to those who have the tapes / cds. I should be able to borrow a dv camera for loading the tapes onto my laptop down here. If those who have footage are able to convert it to disc, that would solve the problem though.

Haven't got there yet... It's been a bit of a full-on week to say the least. But I got chicken carcasses for $1.30/kg at a Chinese butcher in Chatswood, and they had beaut bones and stuff too. I am meant to be driving south tomorrow, and will have 4 dogs in the car and no room in the freezer at the other end, so probably not the best time to detour via the markets... But I fully intend to soon (& have to come up in 4 weeks to get the girls desexed in Bankstown so maybe then) and will gladly tell you all about it. Alibear - I'm going to sit down with my dockets [tonight!!] and figure out how much I'm spending all up...

I hopefully will be able to put the film of some of the afternoon sessions (and maybe some of the early theory as well) onto a cd. More than happy to make a copy for you - just need to work out how to get the footage on to my laptop to start with! :D Haven't done it before but I'm sure I can! Raw hands - I know what you mean - and add that to a bit of sunburn and a touch of anxiety and I got home with a whopper headache and also had pretty good sleep that night... Needless to say Ruski was snoring by the time we were back on the main road. Clearly, being a loon takes it out of you. But a neighbour came over the next morning to say that the pups had been "screaming and howling" from the time I left in the morning till the time I got back ... guess we've got some work to do there too... Thanks Steve - the theory will take a while to percolate through and I've got a few gaps to fill in with the bits I missed but I'm very glad to have had the opportunity to go. Sas - thankyou for being a car-companion! Never met a better supposed non-mapreader! As far as figuring out who's who, I doubt it's much of a mystery. Me = Girl with "enthusiastic" black labrador.

Those of us with revved up labradors need all we can get.... I missed a lot of what happened in the afternoon and didn't get a chance to take notes at all, so I'm looking forward to having a look at any of the film people are willing to share... (I wouldn't have brought Ruski if I'd known he'd put on such a perfomance - I'm sorry if he drowned out any important bits!) Would be happy to try and cut some of the film together if people'd like me to have a go at it... Ended up buying one of the collars Steve demonstrated on Ruski - not something I would have anticipated coming away with but it certainly focusses him on me and doesn't seem to bother him at all. I found it quite disconcerting to see him so worked up yesterday - he got to the point that he had almost lost his voice and was squirting diarrhoea... But then thismorning we had a relaxed and enjoyable offleash run in the dog park, met plenty of new dogs and there was no hint of any agitation... I guess the tension grew for the dogs over the course of the day. If anyone has notes or film they'd be willing to share, I'd really appreciate it.

Is anyone videoing tomorrow? I'm looking at $120 plus the cost of the tapes to hire a camera for the day, which is a bit beyond my budget, but would be interested in sharing the cost and making copies for those of you who attend, or chipping in for tape costs if anyone has a camera of their own they can bring? Those of you who's email addresses I have, I've sent my phone numbers - I'll check email and this thread when I can today, but I need to pick up the camera before 5pm if I go ahead with the hiring option...

Haha - Brooke - I just messaged you re your transport post - are you going to the k9 force wshop too? If so I'll meet you there anyway! Cheerio! M.

Hush hush you goose. Twill pan out. No cabs will be hired if I can help it. You've already volunteered to help Ruski the problematic Labrador navigate, and there's no backing out of that.

Where in Flemington do you go? Haven't ever been yet! So when I've been there I'll tell you! I just saw on the web site that part of the market has meats etc so I though it would be a good place to check out. More than happy to. I'll take a pen and paper! Hey I'll try to go before Saturday and then I'll be able to tell you allllllll about it at the K9 force wshop (if you're going - or do you just organise them now?) AliBear - I've PMd you - sorry it was garbled - I'll try to be clearer once I'm on the other side of the 4 hour drive I'm about to start....

Not all dogs! My three lick all the vege pulp up first and then eventually get round to the wings/frames etc... They've even developed a taste for ACV and the oils etc that swoosh around in the bottom of the bowl - all the liquid goes first... It seems daunting Alibear, I've just switched with my current dogs, but increasingly I'm relaxed about it. By all means follow the "recipes" till you get a feel for it, but from what people have said to me, the more experienced you get the less regimented you're happy to be. I'm very happy with what I'm feeding them now - happy to PM you what I'm doing - but I am still learning and getting advice from others here - and I have some books which helps if you're someone who likes stuff in writing. I'm planning a big meat shopping expedition to the Flemington Markets later this week if you want to come! :D

I will be driving from Castlecrag with one dog - I think Carlingford is sort of on the way??? Anyway you're more than welcome to come with me - I think it's too far out for trains... You'll get to meet the dog who I could have vollied for temp testing had I been in Sydney at the right time! (Though not that he's without issues himself!)

Malaseb is available from vet clinics and increasingly things like Pet Barn. They usually will also have the other ones in the range like Pyohex and Aloveen. Just a note with the mince - I'm only a learner at this myself - but my understanding is that firstly if you're feeding mince it's vital (esp with pups) that they also get bones that they can fully consume (chicken carcs and wings etc) as otherwise it can play havoc with their development. Also with the veges - raw is beaut, but they must be Really Ground Up - pulp - like what a herbivore would have in their tums - as the canines can't break down the cellulose in the cell walls of veges so only get the goodness if pretty much every cell is mooshed. There's heaps of info about beaut ways to make good balanced diets on this forum - specially if you search for BARF topics and / or maybe search for "bone" "chicken wings" "calcium" etc... She's a little spunk is Minx!

Hen's toenails? Yuuurrk. But the dogs don't seem to mind!

Hooray for that! Bring on the nature's gift pellets as the harbinger of perfect obedience for my pack 'o hounds then! I have no probs with chicky-bits as part and parcel of said pellets, it's only if they were bulker-uppers that I would take exception... though I doubt any of my three canines would. he he LP... I though all well bred ratties were tabletrained before going to their "forever" homes... Hey off topic, but did your rattie-ess "whelp"? (or whatever you call it?) I'd love to know how it went... Regards, Ratlover in hibernation...

I use Natures Gift treats as a training food - is this the same company? If so - they often have sticky-out bits, like feather-quills... for those of you who have been through the factory, is this because they're made of whole chickens, or cause they're bulked up with "by products" ie feathers?

Have you tried the medicated shampoos? Like Aloveen? Also our last rottie girl had to have a special oil on her food to stop her skin flaking - she just ate supercoat though, so I'm not sure if this would have been different if she'd been eating more varied / raw / fresher foods. I think (this is years ago now) that she may have actually had seborrheic (sp?) dermatitis - which can be harder to treat than random dandruff. eta - and yes - I agree about the sardines too. And tinned mackeral.

And it smells beaut! :D

I've been wondering about this too - isn't 1080 dog and fox poison? I thought the sign on a property down the road for us said that dog baits of 1080 had been laid there... or is 1080 a bunny killer? And skewing off topic a little [sorry]... - but another reason to check roadkill - not only for freshness if you're prepared to turn it into cuisine de la dog, but also for small inhabitants... (People drive horribly fast along our road - this fella's mum was killed shortly before we drove past... apparently he's now thriving and hopefully will come back to us for release. :D)

Of course have a think about whether it could be any of the causes suggested above - but if you can't pin down the cause and decide to wash him after all - Aloveen is a soap free oatmeal shampoo, good for soothing flea allergy dermatitis - if the dog is allergic to fleas it will only take one bite to set off the whole reaction, so you wouldn't necessarily see the offending critter. Pyohex is a medicated antibacterial shampoo that is comparatively gentle (compard to some other medicated foams) and may help if the itchiness is infection based (especially staph infections) - vet gave it to me for puppy pimples and low level skin/vulva infection in pups - she said it can also be used to cleanse wounds so I guess if must be fairly mild. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think Malaseb is the next strongest option after Pyohex? And is sometimes used for mange? Is that right?

Thankyou espinay - I've had Give Your Dog a Bone for a couple of months but Grow Your Pups and The Barf Diet just arrived a couple of days ago so I'm still poking through them! They sometimes get chicken thighs too, now I think about it, and drumsticks, which are a bit meatier, and they've have had half whole chickens once, and lamb shanks too, but someone said the bones in shanks might be too hard for pups. But I'll keep the extra meat in mind. I'm hoping to someday stumble across a butcher who has whole rabbit carcasses in bulk lots! They're still occasionally passing whole chicken vertebrae and bits of bone out in their poo though... seems like they digest half of the bones and half just slide on through unchanged... in the Barf Diet he says this should gradually change to full digestion, but these pups have had chicken wings from shortly after weaning and bones the whole time they've been with me... Do you still find bone shards from your dogs who have been on BARF for ages? Thanks for the hint about the oils and RR - I haven't used RR before but was going to see if it helped an older dog with separation anxiety.

How much more meat on the bone should they get? I'd been using Billinghurts' comment that as a bottom line pups can do well on chicken wings and random bits & pieces as a sort of safety net - for their RMB / meat quota my pups and adult are getting chicken wings, necks, a little bit of offal and whatever is available or on special to make up the remainder - so this week it's been flaps of pork ribs, chicken carcasses and some huge marrow bones and last night they had 2 lambs' hearts each - but that's a first. (This is in addition to their other stuff - scraps, eggs, tinned fish, yogurt, and a pulp of veges, fruit, kelp powder, oils etc). Should I be adding some mince or other meat too? And another question - do those of you who use it have a cheaper way of buying codliver and flaxseed oil and brewer's yeast and rescue remedy than from the health food shop? I bought my first bottles/packets last week and it added up to $70 and I'll get through the oils in a few weeks if I dose them at the level Billinghurst says.

Hermaphrodite? Jacq (Cordelia's) had one recently, and there was a thread with a lot of info in it... I think usually they have a really small penis though?? ETA - hermaphrodite buttercup - here tis. Also read in another thread as I was searching that it's usually not diagnosed till adulthood, and then due to behavioural issues...