Willem

Bump! ...the biggest problem I have with those de-sexing promotions from the RSPCA and the like is, that it is offered as a convenient substitute for time consuming training and education. What does such an attitude - choosing 'mandatory de-sexing' over emphasising intensive training and education - reveals about a society? ...that is something that really worries me...

...I really should stop encouraging others to leave their dogs entire ...less work for me with my entire dog if all the dogs in the neighbourhood are de-sexed :D

ouch ...that hurts ....do you really implying that a season is something like a disease??????

...seems someone has to do it as the RSPCA is too busy because they have to euthanize all the dogs with behaviour issues... ETA: ...now that is really interesting stuff: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/45251733_Behavioral_Reasons_for_Relinquishment_of_Dogs_and_Cats_to_12_Shelters ...some quotes: ...The NCPPSP RegionalShelter Study found that behavioral problems, including aggression toward people or nonhuman animals, were the most frequently given reasons for canine relinquishment... and ...Neutered female dogs and cats and neutered male dogs were more frequent in the behavioral category of relinquishment. Yes but if their parents had been desexed non of them would have ended up in the shelters. ...you talking about the dog owners' parents or the dogs' parents?....I guess it doesn't matter as both options are true :D - at least if you would de-sex them early enough...but then, if I follow this approach, the only way to end that dogs will end up in pounds is to have no dogs at all, or do you really think that only the dogs bred by accident end up in pounds?

...seems someone has to do it as the RSPCA is too busy because they have to euthanize all the dogs with behaviour issues... ETA: ...now that is really interesting stuff: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/45251733_Behavioral_Reasons_for_Relinquishment_of_Dogs_and_Cats_to_12_Shelters ...some quotes: ...The NCPPSP RegionalShelter Study found that behavioral problems, including aggression toward people or nonhuman animals, were the most frequently given reasons for canine relinquishment... and ...Neutered female dogs and cats and neutered male dogs were more frequent in the behavioral category of relinquishment. Oh good, 16 year old 'science'. Good googling..... Not to me mention correlation vs causation. ...now that is an interesting stand ....don't trust science because it is 16 years old ...I guess the next thing is that you guys come up with that there was a time when people believe the earth was a disk?.... Skinner's doctrine are how old?...

Neither perse nor I said said you did Willem. We were agreeing with each other that there can be impacts of bitches in season being out in areas other dogs frequent, beyond the impact on the individual bitch and their owner. Mandatory obedience training, if even possible to implement, would not solve the issue of accidental, unplanned, poorly planned, unwanted etc etc etc litters. A beautifully trained bitch pottering in her yard while in season can still be mated by a beautifully trained entire male who jumps the fence. true, a lot of things can happen which are very unlikely - and if they happen, are the numbers resulting from those accidents really the ones that causes the overpopulation and problems in the pounds?...I don't think so, and also other countries, e.g. Sweden with less than 7% of the dogs de-sexed, clearly indicate that this is not the case. Accidents will happen in Sweden too, but the chances that it happens are small, hence no impact on pound numbers. I think the correlation between those accidents and owners who don't care much about their dogs at all - whether it is general training or state - is pretty obvious. ...have a look at my response to Jules...what else do I need to say :) ? ..well, I recall a thread where I was called names from a few members here when I mentioned that I walked my dog even though when she is on heat... I understand that de-sexing can be one tool in the box for good dog management, and in special scenarios it can add quality to a dog's live, however, IMO the public presentation is IMO pretty one-sided and misinforming....and many people fall into this trap just to struggle later with all the unwanted consequences. Hence I thought demonstrating that dogs in heat (and in most other states) are still normal dogs via the footage might help some dog owners to make a more balanced decision. Unfortunately some authorities and organisations push the 'mandatory de-sexing approach' instead of a 'mandatory obedience training approach' for dog owners. While both of these options might be hard to enforce anyway, I think the later one is much smarter and would achieve by far the better results.

...now that is really interesting stuff: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/45251733_Behavioral_Reasons_for_Relinquishment_of_Dogs_and_Cats_to_12_Shelters ...some quotes: ...The NCPPSP Regional Shelter Study found that behavioral problems, including aggression toward people or nonhuman animals, were the most frequently given reasons for canine relinquishment... and ...Neutered female dogs and cats and neutered male dogs were more frequent in the behavioral category of relinquishment.

...I don't get the last bit...it sounds like it is unfair that I train my dog so it is well behaved , and if other owners don't train their dogs and let them stray it is my fault? it's unfair on the other dogs who have not as much control ... and have to have a battle with their hormones . ...would you say the same if someone is walking his/her toy poodle and it gets ripped apart from a dog that couldn't control its prey drive as it wasn't properly trained?....poor aggressor that had a battle with his hormones?

@ SG: look, I don't 'provoke' other dogs / owners as I don't visit dog parks and the like when she is on heat (hence also no official obedience or agility classes), however, I will fight for my right to walk my trained dog and won't put her in solitary confinement if she is on heat independent whether other owners don't train their dogs and let them stray. In a way it is easy for me to stick to this as I'm not afraid of other dogs (never was) and while I tried hard I never got seriously bitten - I understand that this is not a given for other people and that they will struggle with potential consequences if they - or their dogs - would get intimidated by straying dogs. What I don't understand is that we obviously surrender to all these ignorant dog owners out there, and instead of making obedience training mandatory to address the real problem we pushing mandatory de-sexing...

...seems someone has to do it as the RSPCA is too busy because they have to euthanize all the dogs with behaviour issues... ETA: ...now that is really interesting stuff: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/45251733_Behavioral_Reasons_for_Relinquishment_of_Dogs_and_Cats_to_12_Shelters ...some quotes: ...The NCPPSP RegionalShelter Study found that behavioral problems, including aggression toward people or nonhuman animals, were the most frequently given reasons for canine relinquishment... and ...Neutered female dogs and cats and neutered male dogs were more frequent in the behavioral category of relinquishment.

...I don't get the last bit...it sounds like it is unfair that I train my dog so it is well behaved , and if other owners don't train their dogs and let them stray it is my fault?

you might just trade one inconvenience for the other - 1 or 2 times per year a bitch on heat for spay incontinence all year long ...I always shake my head when I read on one of those de-sexing promoting websites that 'there is a small chance that this can happen' ....but when your actually read about spay incontinence than it suddenly it is a 'common problem' for spayed dogs... In the bitches I have had speyed , only one developed it at a youngish age ..the rest have all been well into double figures, and it is easily managed with specific bedding etc :) ...depends, when you travel with your dog in the car, or someone else car, visiting friends etc. it can be quite stressful as you never know when it will happen...

..well, I recall a thread where I was called names from a few members here when I mentioned that I walked my dog even though when she is on heat... I understand that de-sexing can be one tool in the box for good dog management, and in special scenarios it can add quality to a dog's live, however, IMO the public presentation is IMO pretty one-sided and misinforming....and many people fall into this trap just to struggle later with all the unwanted consequences. Hence I thought demonstrating that dogs in heat (and in most other states) are still normal dogs via the footage might help some dog owners to make a more balanced decision. Unfortunately some authorities and organisations push the 'mandatory de-sexing approach' instead of a 'mandatory obedience training approach' for dog owners. While both of these options might be hard to enforce anyway, I think the later one is much smarter and would achieve by far the better results.

you might just trade one inconvenience for the other - 1 or 2 times per year a bitch on heat for spay incontinence all year long ...I always shake my head when I read on one of those de-sexing promoting websites that 'there is a small chance that this can happen' ....but when your actually read about spay incontinence than it suddenly it is a 'common problem' for spayed dogs...

lemme see - Susan Garrett has been working on pushing out the boundary of "too aroused to respond" for hmm, 20+ years now. And you've just figured it out? Got nothing to do with whether your dog is on heat or not. Tho other male dogs who are excited by this and not so obedient or able to work when excited may stuff everything up. literally. Ie you can be the best driver but some other nut case can still get you. you should know in the meanwhile that I'm a pretty slow learner :) .... ETA: ...well, those dogs would find themselves tethered to the fence via my spare leash and a carabiner in no time ready to get picked up by the council if they would be too persistent.

...so it has something to do with my pet hate ....de-sexing respectively if you leave them entire.... nope, ...the 'speciality' (for some people) is that her behaviour respectively response to my recall (whether I use a whistle, call her or just whistle) is - like always - very good, even though.... :) ....and it has something to do with her unchanged responsive behaviour ... Where did you see it? If there was she didn't show much interest in it. ...no, nothing else, especially no other dogs.... ETA:...all clues are now out there, you just have to put 1 and 1 together.... ...no other dogs - not that the presence of other dog would change here response to my cues much, but the other dogs might be not so well trained... so what could happen to an entire bitch where a lot of people think that it turns them into some kind of monsters, make them totally disobedient, wipes out all the reflexes you trained over years to override all kind of drives, and let them take off straight away to follow their instincts if you risk to let them run off-leash? HUH??? What difference does being entire make, none that I noticed over the years, unless they are actually ovulating and there is a male dog there that they think a suitable candidate to be a dad but if they are well conditioned they will respond they do it without thinking, probably think damn these conditioned responses when you remove them from the male tho, after a bit of experience with the scenario I just mentioned they might go nah the last few times I did this I couldn't do what I wanted to do, unless their food drive overrides reproducing, which in the right conditions i.e. the dog is hungry it will, Maslow's hierarchy of need.... sorry I still don't get what is so special?? that's the point,... nothing special...for dog owners used to entire dogs, but for others it's a OMG-MUST-BE-FIXED scenario...

...I photoshoped this :)

why?...I recall her, put her on the leash ...and that's it...

yep, that's it...it is normal for you and dog owners that have experience with entire dogs, but for a lot of dog owners brainwashed by all these different de-sexing campaigns it is unfortunately not...

…when we had the problem with our dog where we couldn’t get her focus when other dogs where around because it got her in a very aroused state (it was enough a dog head appeared on the horizon to make her going nuts), I started to train her with the flirt pole. At the beginning it was more a testing for getting her focus and burning energy, but later I noticed that this was an excellent exercise to train her in a controlled environment when she was in an aroused state….so I used it also to train the basic obedience cues (sit, drop, stand, recalls…place….) when she was high aroused…and it worked. It worked so well, that approx. a year later I can do the passing exercise with nearly any other dog in the obedience training without losing her focus, despite that her strong desire to run and play with other dogs is still there – she just learned due to the training in an aroused state to control it and only does it if she is allowed to do so. Now, there is – unfortunately – not much scientific knowledge about what parameters change these behaviour and / or emotional states and how exactly it all works together, however we know a few fragments that allows to jump to conclusions. E.g. we know that in stress situation the adrenaline level is up, causing mammals to become less pain sensitive and increase overall performance, and we know – roughly – how the thyroid level effects the mood. We know that the testosterone level increases significantly in a young growing dog and that it will reach a peak after 6 to 18 month (approx., depending on individual dog and breed) – if we don't cut his balls off before it happens. We know that the hormone levels various over times and for different development periods, some hormones level will change even through the day. Hence I think it is fair to say that we have to deal with quite complex hormone patterns that are responsible for the different drives and behaviours in our dogs. They change all the time, one hormone level goes up, the other decreases, following a perfect program designed by thousands of years of evolution. If we interfere with this program without even knowing the details, we risk negative impacts regarding their immune system, reproductive system and consequently normal behaviour. I think it is also fair to say, that those hormone patterns will vary more during the development of a young dog compared to a matured dog when the different systems emphasise more on maintaining the status quo and are less challenged with setting up a growing organism for reproduction respectively survival. One day the scientists will come up with a ‘new’ discovery where they link the different fear phases in a dog to specific hormone patterns and they will tell you exactly the particular concentration of each hormone responsible for the particular state. While this will add details and will be acknowledged as a scientific evidence and big achievement – I think we can recognise these connections already due to knowledge available right now. We also know that a dog that was trained in isolation – e.g. in a backyard – where it showed perfect obedience will fail in an environment with new triggers that causes the hormone pattern to change. So what can we take from this?.... For me it seems to be pretty clear that if we want that a dog becomes a well behaved companion dog, we have to do the training for all these different hormone patterns. Often dog owners visit puppy schools and then a few month obedience classes, and because the dog becomes a well behaved dog they think that’s enough. Half a year later and with the concentration of testosterone doubled in the blood the dog behaves (of course he does!!!) total different, might get aggressive, and the changed behaviour is addressed with cutting the balls off. It is not the dogs fault! …the dog just wasn’t trained for this changing hormone pattern. Sooooo ….ongoing training is the key. What about entire bitches on heat? ….some dog owners will think OMG, solitary confinement for the next 3 weeks, and suddenly a dog used to daily exercises and walks gets locked away for 3 weeks. Of course the dog gets frustrated and will come up with all kind of unwanted behaviours, not necessarily linked to the fact that she is on heat, but to the lack of exercises and interference with the environment she was used to. Many dog owners will link all these unwanted behaviours to her heat cycle, plus they will miss the chance to train the dog for this new hormone pattern. And that’s the purpose of this video clip, to demonstrate that ongoing training, no matter in what kind of state the dog is, is the key for a well behaved dog. She has a high prey drive, but she doesn’t chase the bull – if I would say ‘push’ or ‘take it’ instead of ‘drop’, her behaviour would be totally different; however, I set her up for this scenario hence she has no problems to control herself and comes happily when recalled, despite that this strong prey drive is still there - and can be triggered any time via the right cue! Now she is in heat, but in a way it is just another hormone pattern, and being setup for this specific pattern she won’t run off or behaves differently. I know a dog owner of an entire male dogs and we could do the passing exercise in obedience - because both dogs have been trained to do so. Now, before I duck for cover: I’m fully aware that not every dog is trained like this, hence there are some rules I adopt when she is in heat, e.g. Limiting contacts to dogs respectively only allow contacts with dogs which are known to be trained, or de-sexed, or females, including supervision all the time while these dogs are in the vicinity. No official obedience or agility classes – training happens only at home or while walking when no other dogs are around. Make sure gates and doors are closed at home all times, inspect fence daily. ...common sense.... But…IMHO, there is no substitute for training for a companion dog, no matter in which state the dog currently is.

...so it has something to do with my pet hate ....de-sexing respectively if you leave them entire.... nope, ...the 'speciality' (for some people) is that her behaviour respectively response to my recall (whether I use a whistle, call her or just whistle) is - like always - very good, even though.... :) ....and it has something to do with her unchanged responsive behaviour ... Where did you see it? If there was she didn't show much interest in it. ...no, nothing else, especially no other dogs.... ETA:...all clues are now out there, you just have to put 1 and 1 together.... ...no other dogs - not that the presence of other dog would change here response to my cues much, but the other dogs might be not so well trained... so what could happen to an entire bitch where a lot of people think that it turns them into some kind of monsters, make them totally disobedient, wipes out all the reflexes you trained over years to override all kind of drives, and let them take off straight away to follow their instincts if you risk to let them run off-leash?

Where did you see it? If there was she didn't show much interest in it. ...no, nothing else, especially no other dogs.... ETA:...all clues are now out there, you just have to put 1 and 1 together....

nope, ...the 'speciality' (for some people) is that her behaviour respectively response to my recall (whether I use a whistle, call her or just whistle) is - like always - very good, even though.... :)

...it seems we have at least 6 dogs, however, Kiama (where the vet resides who made this offer) might be a tad too far away. I will make a call around again on Monday, maybe with 6 dogs one of the Wollongong vets is keen to go for it.... ...sorry, had a busy day...will call around tomorrow... @animallover: I will keep you informed... ETA: ups, I made a mess of this post - I wanted to quote myself, but obviously edited the genuine post, hence my response to animallover here and not as a follow up post...sorry...

My uncle would do this. Like the boys club. Because he sold his bulls as breeding stock. So he'd have about 15 to 20 of various ages - usually sold them about 2 years old and had the next generations coming on... And get this - had a guy come in and teach them the bovine equivalent of loose lead walking and show stacking - with reward based training - same as zoo critters. Ie you want your bulls to be friendly with people and easy to handle. I think that is what they do here ...the black one at the fence where she did the drop is much bigger than the others ... he actually charged the last time when we trained the drop...they can be nasty - a bull actually killed her father (worked as a cattle dog) the breeder told me recently.