Willem

...ok, sorry, the "never" confused me...

@ MRB and corvus: thanks for the 'more food for thought' :) ...who knows, perhaps I find myself one day in a situation where I have to try something different and then it is good to know that there are alternatives out there that worked for others. @ silentchild wrt "...I never correct my dog or stop her from disengaging and running off...." : NEVER???...also considering that a learning curve can be assumed (over time), not stopping a dog from running off could mean getting hit by a car, causing accidents, getting bitten by snakes, intimidating others etc. etc....?... IMO there are definitely a lot of situations where a dog owner has the responsibility to stop the dog from running off!

\I know it should not be used on Collies. Not sure about Aussie Shepherds. Do they come in this category? ...50% chance.... My link

wrt 'single session': I doubt it ...the next visitor without a treat will struggle to keep the dog down... IMO the problem is that the dog took the reward on its own terms: the dog sought attention and took it (it was not given as a reward for good behavior from the helper or the owner). You can argue that the dog had to compromise and wasn't allow to jump, but there was still some 'wrestling' from the helper required to keep the dog down. At the end the dog was calmer, but it is at least debatable whether this was due to the 'training methodology' or because the dog just lost the interest in the visitor. ...and, if the attention was the reward: why using the treat - which the dog didn't get - at all? ...the helper could just grab the collar of the dog to keep him down, some patting, hugs...till the dog loses the interest (as his want for attention was satisfied) in the new visitor ...same result, but IMO that's not training the dog, more a 'kind of arranging with the less pleasant scenario'. If the treat is meant to be a distraction: why the helper doesn't give the treat - and even more treats - to the dog to keep him down, thus rewarding him with the treat if he doesn't jump?...would be much, much easier, less wrestling required. The helper intervenes anyway heavily, so why not letting the helper be the trainer? ...e.g. in Roova's link the dog gets rewarded with treats for keeping the 4 paws on the ground. For me the whole approach is overcomplicated and I can't see a clear trainings pattern. Now I know I sound very critical here, please don't take it personally, I'm just a learner and interested in dog training...

No worries, I'm interested in these kind of discussions and information too...and of course, there not one single method that is the one and only: dogs are different, owners are different...add different scenarios, locations etc. and dog training becomes a very colorful task :D (still easier than training educating my kids :laugh: )

...that My link gives a nice summary of the advantages of vasectomy and tubal ligation ...

...some more information about spaying with focus on the medical procedure: My link...the author might be a little bit biased, but it still makes interesting reading...

...our dog stopped nibbling on door frames etc. when we started to give her bones (2-3 times a week - she is 10 1/2 months old now). She likes to chew on them and the chewing cleans also her teeth. Feeding bones is controversial - here another thread about this: My link, but for us the benefits outweighs the potential negative side effects.

I'm always concerned about the side effects of using antibiotics - there is always a good chance to wipe out all the good bacteria in the digestion system that are required for the digestions. Without the good bugs poor digestion with possible vomiting and diarrhea - pretty the same symptoms the bad bugs cause. (Might be one of the reasons puppies like to eat poo to built up this variety of bugs). Some light reading here: Stomach Infection with Helicobacter When you mention that he is on a 'diet of chicken'; do you really feed only chicken?...he might lack a lot of other nutrients that will also effect the digestion negatively.

??? ...I don't understand this, that's not consistent with the information I have, e.g.Border Collie - Wikipedia

IMO there are too many contradictions in this approach: she says "...do not allow your dog to get to people..." and then recommends the employment of a helper: for the dog there is no difference between helper and other people. Furthermore the dog gets the message that it is ok. to approach the other person (against the owner's will) and this gets even reinforced by the treat. Using the treat for this purpose represents IMO another flaw: for me the treat is a tool to get the dog's focus and reinforce correct behavior. But in the video the dog didn't get the treat although the dog was lured by the treat into doing something special...that's confusing...the next time I want to get the dog's focus using a treat it might not work anymore! In the video the lady 'verifies' the success of this trainings method by repeating it - after a break - and interpreting the reduced interest of the dog as accomplishment. IMO the dogs is only responding to the experience it just had - minutes ago - with this helper (her). If tomorrow another person will be at the gate I doubt whether this method will show any success. IMO the only accomplishment achieved in the video was 'calming down' the dog - but the owner 'pays a high price' for it: The biggest flaw is that the owner gives up the control and leave what happens to the dog and the helper...a different person on the gate and the dog will investigate again on its own terms what's going on as the dog is not trained to follow the owners commands: recall? ...won't work....sit? ...stay?...drop?...won't work - and it is not the dog's mistake as the dog wasn't trained to do this. I think the approach the lady recommends is just wrong and even compromises other trainings methods based on reinforcements with treats. Comparing the approach from the link with what I did over the last weeks: our dog was (still is, but it improved significantly) a 'hyper greeter' regarding other dogs (trigger). So I calm her down by increasing the distance between the trigger (= moving her away from other dogs) till I get her focus back. When I can control her I reinforce her good behavior with treats and decrease the distance to the trigger and so on. I can't see why this method shouldn't work for the scenario shown in the video clip respectively for visitors.

...that's a very constructive and well-thought-out approach

...I'm not sure whether this is the best approach...in some way this is the opposite of what I did in the last 2 weeks with our dog by not rewarding her with what she likes to do, respectively by prohibiting that she plays with the trigger / other dogs. The methodology shown in the link let the dog focus on the trigger respectively allow the dog to take the focus from the owner. Wouldn't it be better to find out what the trigger distance is, start controlling the dog in this safe area and reducing the distance to the trigger slowly?....that's what I did in the last weeks following the advise given here and obviously it worked for me :D ...

...wrt vasectomy: some interesting reading here My link ...makes you thinking why one measure is favored over the other...

...maybe a little bit off topic, but: I read through some vet information about all the advantages of de-sexing. On websites where vets or government organizations promote de-sexing, they often highlight the medical / health benefits, e.g. that it will reduce or even eliminate the risk of some cancers in female dogs. While from a medical point of view this is true for removed organs (there might be other side effects), I still have the feeling that it is more about 'convenience' and less about the dog's health. For me it is hard to understand why such a major surgery (at least for female dogs) is so heavily promoted and should become even mandatory in some states while on the other side tail docking is illegal in Australia (not that I want to cut my dog's tail off :)).

IMO it is one of those laws that make the negative impacts less qualified dog owners have on society and environment easier to handle, but it won't raise the qualification of dog owners (or people who want to become a dog owner). And the later one is IMO the real problem. So instead of making de-sexing mandatory I would prefer introducing measures like dog licenses (you need also a license to drive a car, or owning a gun etc.) and making obedience classes mandatory to raise the awareness of dog owners wrt their responsibility. However, I understand that those measures are far more complicated to follow up, likely more costly, will require more bureaucracy and thus harder to sell to the public.

A big Thank You for all the advice given here!!!! The transformation our dog made over the last 2 1/2 weeks is amazing - during the agility training this evening I could keep her focus for most of the time on me and the obstacles; standing in a circle with the other dogs just 2 meters away to the left and to the right and she still followed my commands ... sit ... drop ...stay...her eyes on me...AMAZING ...my wife walked her this afternoon before agility training and was surprised that she didn't go 'nuts' when meeting other dogs! ...she is so much more matured now, you have to see it to believe it!

...that's a little bit more comprehensive YouTube clip from the same guys in Perth ...(sorry for hijacking the "blue tongue lizard thread - I guess you could use the same trainings methodology for them so....)

I believe the positive effects of digging 'for fun' (natural behavior and mental stimulation, she likes the garden / to be in the garden) outshine by far the downsides - yes, it is some work to fill up the holes and throw some fresh seed on it, but she doesn't overdue it so I leave her this fun. I believe it is one of the things you have to put up with when you like dogs. ...holes in the lawn, pet hair on the carpet requiring more vacuuming, picking up poo etc....you can't have fun with dogs without some associated duties...

...obviously your good friend knows how to pull the trigger ...if she follows this thread she will feel even more 'rewarded' :D ...when my daughters try to start those arguments where you can find pro and cons depending on the angle you look at it (they also now how to pull the trigger) I borrow this :laugh:

...I thought about getting some 'rubber' snake dummies to start snake safe training, but I assume it would be pretty useless and the video confirms it: the biggest risk for the dog is when she is chasing things while running through higher grass where she just follows the smell (we have red belly black snakes, brown snakes and tiger snakes here). The video shows that they train the dogs to back off when they smell the snake (which makes absolutely sense). wrt negative comments about the use of electro collars / shock collars: IMO it is just a tool and using it for training the dog to stay away from snakes is - IMO - the best approach as it is fast and effective learning and might save the life of the dog. Positive reinforcement for all other training, but dealing with snakes is a different picture, and if it is done as shown in the video by professionals it won't hurt the dog (or the owner) and will prevent a lot of grief.

I don't believe that this is a good idea as it will also provide perfect hiding places for snakes. It will also attract their prey (mice, lizards of cause, etc.). While you don't like seeing your dogs killing lizards, for sure you don't want your dogs to be killed by a venomous snake. The more your place suits the lizards and blue tongues, the more they are attracted and the more will be killed at the end..

...I guess the biggest risk for injuries comes from jumping ("second law of motion"), that is where even a small weight can cause a damaging force. Hence once I would start her training with some weight in the bag I wouldn't allow her off leash (off leash only with an empty bag at the beginning).

Ha, ha...I hope our dog will find some gold one day :D ...

catch a blue tongue and use 4 pet panels for a square to keep it safe from the dog; then train the dog - make sure the dog doesn't see you - with an electro or non barking collar. Do some last tests without the panels / pet fence. That's what they do to train dogs to stay away from snakes...obviously it is not so easy with snakes, and they have a special smell, so I guess dummies don't work for snakes.