Willem

...it is about different dedicated cooling systems, and that a dog's cooling system relies on panting = evaporation cooling via exchange of air volume.

huski, I think I know where you coming from, however, you are assuming the correct and well-thought-out usage of the collar. The problem I see with people today is that nearly everyone is tempted to do shortcuts to save time; everything has to be faster, louder, better ...and more convenient. And that's the catch. People will try it to 'correct' any kind of misbehavior because they don't take their time and think why the dog is doing it and/or what causing it...the people want to have a solution now, it seems to be their nature to press buttons without thinking, or even reading manuals...we are well conditioned (via TV, commercials) to jump on something that works 'faster', 'better', however we don't want to read the small print.

...I guess it has nothing to do with the breed, just grossly negligent from the irresponsible owner...

I don't like the chicken bones (used as needles from our ancestors for a reason), but we feed turkey necks and brisket bones (every second day neck or brisket alternating)...she finish off the turkey neck in 10 minutes, but loves to chew on the brisket bone the whole day - when it becomes too small I take it away to avoid the risk of swallowing it at a whole.

If I would have toilet problems with my dog (we never had any toilet problems with none of our dogs - our BC needed a few days then she started to use the dog flap on her own) I would start walking the dog on a regular basis at least 3 times a day - it seems once they start sniffing they also want to leave their marks so it becomes somehow much more attractive to do a poop during a walk. When they grow up I would say 2 - 4 poops per 24 hours is quite normal (at least for our BC, she is 10.5 month old now), if you only walk the dog once a day and then even not every day, how should it become a routine for him to do it outside?...saying this it might not be the solution, but at least I would give it a go.

...a few other questions: how much time are the dog(s) spending in the garden?...if he does the poop in the garden: is it on grass, concrete ...same spot all the time?....if he isn't allowed to play the mud game or digging holes he might consider the garden just as another 'room' of the house so he can't differentiate. how much time are you guys spending with the dog(s) in the garden?...in your first post you mentioned that your husband 'let him out'...it might be that the dog is scared to be left alone in the morning when he wants to see you and / or your husband at most after 'a long night alone' thus he is not in the mood for a 'relaxed poo'... how do you respond to the dog when you find out that he made a mess?...what kind of attention do you give him?... if you don't spend much time with him, but give him attention (no matter whether it is negative of positive) because he made a mess in the house he might be trained now to get his attention from there....

sorry to hear - I guess all what you can do at this stage is watching him closely whether there is a change in his behavior; if so, depending on the change (aggression, anxiety...) you have to take the right measures... out of interest: can you tell us a little bit more about the 4 dogs and the area where it happend?...breeds? ...homeless dogs?...on the street? ...rural area?

I don't think it's the food...maybe too long left in the crate and he got used to it. Does he poo also in the crate?...

luckily my dog loves to chew on brisket bones (1-2 per week) and they do the job - she has impeccable teeth. I have no problem to check her teeth etc., but brushing her teeth?...I don't think she would like it...

Thanks...I thought it was obvious; I have nothing against electric farm fences - zapped countless times when younger and we pulled each other close to the fence and tried to shock each other so I know it won't harm a horse (or a dog...)...so yes, I just wanted to point out the contradiction in these laws. You actually could legally confine your dog in a small compound using an electrical fence, but if you want to use a electric collar for training it is illegal ....it is like allowing you to use a hammer to built a carport but you can't use it to built a cubby house ...it just doesn't make sense!

how about this: ...Punishment is the authoritative imposition of an undesirable or unpleasant outcome upon a group or individual, in response to a particular action or behaviour that is deemed unacceptable or threatening to some norm ... :) ...no, not my wording, but Wikipedia :D ...

I just want to point out that the same principle (electrical shock) is used for the benefit of horses while on the other side adopting the same tool for snake avoidance training for dogs is illegal in some states - the thoughts of the people behind those laws are just not consistent.

...that makes an excellent trainings gear. I just used a 15 mm PVC pipe, rope and a rag...voila...training and fun is on. Perfect to check how stable she is and to train 'leave it' and 'take it'...and of course it's a great work out. It gives also a lot of confidence when I can make her sit or drop and stay with moving the rag just centimeters in front of her nose (must be torture for her :) )...not bad for less than $3 (for the 1 m PVC water pressure pipe - rope and rag from the garage).

I love training my dogs too, and I would spend more time with them training them than the vast majority of people. But there is nothing wrong with pet owners who want to take the easier option. A lot of people enjoy their dogs more, once training issues like leash pulling and recall are addressed, it means they can take their dogs out more, give them more freedom, and enjoy spending more time with them :) ...yeah, but it is like a soccer game where you are 5 goals ahead and only 2 minutes left to play :D ...lacks some excitement :laugh: ...

...and I still don't know why electrical horse fences are allowed (correct me if I'm wrong and they are illegal too)...so you can 'torture' horses with electrical shocks (and every other creature that touches it), but no dogs...go figure....

...maybe most of the owners just like to spend the time with their dog(s), well, at least that's the case with me. Yes, it is important that she makes progress, but it is not the most important thing. Our BC is very energetic, so all these agility and obedience classes and the training at home is also to keep her mind and body busy. If all this would be achievable just by a push of a button it would take a lot of fun out of it...I just like to work with my dog...

I think a lot of people if they saw how modern e-collar training works would change their minds about it. I see no difference between using e-collars to train things like snake avoidance, which is a safety issue, and things like recall, which is also a safety issue. Both could be trained with other approaches, but using an e-collar is probably one of the easiest, and most reliable methods for achieving results. That's not to say everyone should use an e-collar but there are many applications for it other than just snake avoidance training. I'm sure the technic is pretty advanced and safe - the point is that I want this 'weapon' against snake bites as sharp as possible; I believe my dog is pretty smart and it won't take long till she figures out that she only gets a shock / stimulation when she is wearing this special collar respectively when I'm around. What I want is that she is scared of snakes because they hurt without any association to me or the collar. If I would use it for recalls she will link it to me...that's not what I want...I can easily train the recalls with a long leash and positive reinforcement.

I wouldn't use it for anything else - I compare it with an antibiotic: it becomes a blunt weapon if used freely. I guess if such a collar is used for other training, with time the dog would figure out that the collar is something 'special', and might behave different when not wearing the collar. The dog should associate the shock with the snake, not with the collar. So I believe it is only justified using it when there is no other practical way of training possible as it is the case with snakes.

...in this video they mention a refreshing course after a 'couple of years'...whatever this means....I guess every 2 years would be good?...you might not even have to use the collar, just a checkup on how the dog responses when seeing or sniffing the snake.

Cat mentioned that she is on the foundation level (= beginners?)...in our beginner class there is a lot of training done together similar to the obedience training, leash off training, then lining up for jumps, walk boards, table (all minimal heights), tunnel.... having other dogs close to mine and being able to control her by the leash is actually a very good training and does a lot wrt regaining her focus. I can't see how the beginner training could work if we would have to put our dogs in crates when not running. If it is not my / her turn on an obstacle, I still train her to make her more stable... Sometimes when I found a few rare seconds peeking to the other field where the advanced group is training, I never could recognize that dogs where put back into crates when it wasn't their turn.

...Well you can take the girl out of the honky tonk, but you can't take the honky tonk out of the girl... I think the behavior is quite normal and natural - it would take a lot of training and some time to teach the dog to differentiate between all the creatures, rats, mice, birds, lizards, snakes ... how should she know what she is allowed and even encouraged to chase and what is a no no?...or that a cat is deaf?... As there are a lot of instincts involved it is not done with just saying no on a few occasions. As a start I would train with her the 'leave it' command and work on the recall - however, this would help other creatures only when you are around. To keep other creatures safe also when you are not around you would have to gather all the different animals and start serious training. Our dog is chasing cockroaches, mice, rats and myna birds (the common one, they are a plague here) when she is in the garden ... good on her ...last week she got a pigeon - bad luck for the pigeon, I won't bother starting to teach her that myna birds are 'bad birds' and the pigeons or our budgies are 'good birds'. When I walk her and see her distracted by a bird (or something else she is keen to chase) I use the scenario to train her focus and her response.

Yea I have to agree, my boy was having some anal gland issues for a while, vet advised to increase bone consumption for a short period and it worked perfectly. ...and again I learned something new :) wrt 'digestible' bones: all natural bones are somehow digestible respectively can provide nutrients / minerals, the problem with the cooked / BBQed ones is that they tend to splinter forming sharp objects that can cause internal injuries.

Are you absolutely sure?..... :D ...it seems that the few things we have in common are loving dogs and not liking FB (and other anti social media), but it seems we can't agree on the physics for this entertaining debate. Now that (the disagreement about the physics) is not really a problem and all the comments given might help other dog owners making the right decision whether they want to clip or not to clip and how short etc...so I will leave it at that admitting that obviously I can't find a suitable analogy for you that would proof my points :) .

...if it would work (I don't know): we humans can't hear the sound, while we can feel the electric shock - automatically we tend to believe that 'shocking' the dog with ultrasound is less tortures for the dog than using an electric shock (or electric stimulation)? ...the guys in the video clip demonstrate that the electric intensity is actually quite moderate - it doesn't burn holes in the fur nor does it other harm...it just gives the dog an inconvenient stimulation for a fraction of a second that the dog will associate with the snake...

to add some fuel to the discussion :D : ...I guess we also have to forbid these electrical muscle stimulators that various companies offer on TV?...same principle as a shock collar...and some people love to torture themselves with it :D wrt an electrical horse fence: this is even crueler as the current runs from the wire through the whole body to the ground while a shock collar causes only a local short cut. I really can't see any reasonable argument why allowing these fences on one side and forbidding shock collars for snake avoidance training on the other.