Willem

considering that - according to some estimations - we have up to 300,000 working dogs (dogs that really work sheep / cattle) in Australia, there is not much about herding here on this forum?... if adding all the Koolies, Kelpies and BCs to this group that live their live more as companion dogs, it is a little bit surprizing - I guess it has something to do with somehow aversive methods adopted in herding training? to kick off a lively discussion here a footage I found on YouTube titled ...I agree with one of the comments that the dog isn't working the sheep at all, it shows no drive and the sheep seem to be really only somehow uninvolved decoy.I had a first herding workshop with my dog and what I found is that the reward for the dogs (for all the dogs that participated in this workshop) was actually to be allowed to work the sheep. Nothing else, no treat, praise etc. could compete with the sheep. My dog ignored the best jackpots...it was only SHEEEEEP. So to capitalize on this reward it was required to 'let the dog go' - the challenge was to teach the dogs that there are some rules involved they have to follow to get this reward... The workshop was organized by Michele Wilkins from Australien Koolie Rescue with Tony Mulvihill as trainer; training took place on his serene premises near Marulan, and the second day at the beautiful Arthursleigh Farm near Marulan, now owned and operated by the University of Sydney. Despite some aversive methods, my dog had the 2 best days of her life and got a lot of rewards by being allowed to herd real sheep. Michele and all the other organizers and Tony did a fantastic job, all sheep survived the workshop without harm, and everyone had a great time. At the end of the second day I had the opportunity to watch Tony while he did some training with 3 of his own dogs moving sheep from one paddock to another through a gate and back again...and then back again ...and again. It was fantastic to watch as there was no stress recognizable, no nerviness, no anxiety, the sheep just moved along nicely, each of the 3 dogs followed the particular cue and everything happend in a very harmonical way...great to watch.

deep in your Kelpie's brain there is this one inbred instinct that will hold him back from making the final kill ...he might try to nip to make them move, but that is not so difficult to control if there are only 3 sheep in the paddock (the next day with 30 (?) sheep that couldn't move so freely in a small paddock it was pretty challenging so)...so even in such a high arousal state you can let him more or less just follow his instincts - if it is an experienced trainer he/she knows whether the dog is good to go off-leash or not. For the dog it is a game, you just have to explain him that there are still a few rules that need to be followed :D . you know you want to do it one day!

don't be so selfish :D ...ask your dog what he prefers; my dog would gave up treats, runs with other dogs, agility and obedience all together for herding sheep. Because the arousal level is so high and the training is so intense I believe the 'normal' agility and obedience training will benefit from such training too: if your (herding) dog do the stands, drops, left and right turns and recalls while with sheep in the paddock he will follow your cues anywhere else. ETA: sorry, we getting off topic - maybe time for a new herding thread. Luckily, the dog doesn't know what he is missing out on :laugh: and as long as we are doing something, he is happy. I am having overarousal issues with him, so really not keen on putting him on sheep :laugh: Someone has suggested this may help, but I don't know if my stress levels can handle it :laugh: ha, ha ...when the trainer asked me to let her off the leash for the first time while in the paddock with 3 sheep, I had to ask him 3 times what he meant as I thought that I understood him wrong and I feared for a bloodshed :D ...but then one of the most amazing things I ever experienced with my dog happened: she suddenly behaved like a trained herding dog and I could keep her quite easily from the sheep respectively from nipping...never underestimate your dog / Kelpie!

don't be so selfish :D ...ask your dog what he prefers; my dog would gave up treats, runs with other dogs, agility and obedience all together for herding sheep. Because the arousal level is so high and the training is so intense I believe the 'normal' agility and obedience training will benefit from such training too: if your (herding) dog do the stands, drops, left and right turns and recalls while with sheep in the paddock he will follow your cues anywhere else. ETA: sorry, we getting off topic - maybe time for a new herding thread.

I just wanted to clarify it for the sake of the sheep :)

that video actually demonstrates pretty good why it is - IMO - a bad idea if you would use 'Treibball' as a preparation for herding: the dog gets trained to contact the ball (because he can't move it otherwise); in herding you don't want this contact as it would dramatically increase the risk of uncontrolled nipping. Now try to explain this to a dog that is trained upfront on a ball while is in the paddock with sheep ... Who said that it was a good preparation for herding. No one - but I'm pretty sure that based on PK's comment some people would have thought that it could be used to prepare their dog for an envisaged herding workshop.

it seems these ducks can serve a lot of different needs, and they taste nice too, they say the runner duck are a little bit lean, so they even make good dog food....hmmmm

that video actually demonstrates pretty good why it is - IMO - a bad idea if you would use 'Treibball' as a preparation for herding: the dog gets trained to contact the ball (because he can't move it otherwise); in herding you don't want this contact as it would dramatically increase the risk of uncontrolled nipping. Now try to explain this to a dog that is trained upfront on a ball while is in the paddock with sheep ...

balls and sheep - totally different kettle of fish ...unfortunately (for the few sheep that have to participate in herding workshops) there is nothing that could replace them. On the other side: they might have some stress for the benefit of all the other thousands of sheep that can be gently moved without stress and without getting nipped via well trained sheep dogs. No treibball is obviously not exactly like herding sheep - the balls are not alive. They use similar principles of going around to the back of the ball or group of balls (like they would go around a flock of sheep), orienting towards the handler (balancing) and then bringing them to the handler. Because balls are not alive and do not move on their own, the dog pushes the ball towards the handler. It looks like good fun! And sort of 'fake' herding if you can't or do not want to use sheep (as you pointed out, there are some ethical questions surrounding using sheep in training the dogs, even more so with city dogs who are not ever going to work on a farm for real and are only doing it for a bit of fun. Is it fair to subject the sheep to all that stress just so your dog can have a bit of fun?). I just wanted to point out that it would be a big big mistake to believe that a dog that can perfectly handle the ball would be ok with sheep. The instincts a sheep can trigger in a dog - and will trigger in the right dog - is a total game changer. If you just look at it you would think there are some similarities - if you see it through the eyes of your dog: no, there are not similarities. wrt stress for the sheep: if you would ask sheep whether they want to volunteer in a herding workshop I assume the answer would be no :) . However, depending on the quality of the course and the trainer, the sheep won't get harmed, and don't forget the training will also condition them for the right response to the dogs too. So there is some direct benefit also for the ones that (have to) participate in the workshop. But yes, it is not for every dog....but for the right ones it is somehow the pinnacle of training.

balls and sheep - totally different kettle of fish ...unfortunately (for the few sheep that have to participate in herding workshops) there is nothing that could replace them. On the other side: they might have some stress for the benefit of all the other thousands of sheep that can be gently moved without stress and without getting nipped via well trained sheep dogs. ETA: herding workshops are fun - my dog just had the best 2 days of her young life - but is IMO only for mental stable and healthy dogs with some herding instincts, hence I don't think it is suitable for Thistle. ETA: someone told me 'Runner Ducks' are somehow a suitable substitute for sheep regarding herding training - I'm tempted to get a few ...

we get here some nasty gusts - enough to knock the (filled) garbage bins over if they are not secured. And yes, the 4 kg seem to have a smaller destruction potential. I wouldn't call it durable, and I wouldn't call it solid - you get what you pay for in the end, and for me the money is better spent on quality material and approx. 8 hour work.

the Bunnings ones made from timber are pretty low quality: very thin timber, the timber cracks when you try to screw the screws in...everything is very, very flimsy - I bought one of these just to bring it back once I recognized how flimsy it was. You also would have to anchor it somehow in the garden as every stronger wind would blow it over. I agree with T.: for AU$ 300 you could build a real nice solid one.

She wont do the xrays unless he is knocked out. they would be done prior to the JPS and at that point they would either do the JPS or wake him up after he was desexed. she did do a physical exam and based her dx on what we said as as well as her exam. I'm rural and don't have the luxury of multi vets to choose from :) if a vet tells me that a 15 week old dog has HD without even looking at an X-ray - me and my dog might be better off without this vet... http://vetsurgerycentral.com/jps.htm ...it seems your vet is just after the $$$$... ETA: check for ticks (everywhere, ears, paws...)...when did the dog got his last vaccination and what was it (C3, C5, C6/7)?

She wont do the xrays unless he is knocked out. they would be done prior to the JPS and at that point they would either do the JPS or wake him up after he was desexed. she did do a physical exam and based her dx on what we said as as well as her exam. I'm rural and don't have the luxury of multi vets to choose from :) see second editing in my previous post; and if your dog is really prone to HD, don't de-sex him or wait at least 3-4 years!

how can the vet make a final diagnose without even having an X-ray done?...change vet and get an x-ray ASAP... ETA: the limping can be from vaccination side effects, tick bites etc. too, yes, it might be HD, but making the decision for the future without an X-Ray is a at least 'adventuresome'. ETA: it is also very unlikely that a dog of such young age shows clear signs of HD - change vet!

That might have also something to do with the various traits of each breed - give a dog a job for which he was bred for and he will have fun and thrive, hence games that simulate those jobs will give the dog lots of fun and excitement; conversely, asking a dog to do something 'unnatural' will lead more likely to frustration. E.g., asking our BC to work as a guide dog would be a total disaster :D , but show her a sheep and she goes nuts and knows what to do without excessive training.

it is definitely not a probiotic...and a softer poo at night time (after a sleep the poo is mostly a little bit softer as there is less compaction due to muscle usage) is nothing that point to digestion issues in the first place. Dogs get older, metabolism can change and so the periods between poo ime... What does this mean? Usage of which muscles influence poo softness? for most people (and dogs ...) sports or another activity where they use their core muscles (stomach / back) will result in 'compacting' the intestines, plus there is the impact of a more efficient metabolism due to a higher energy demand - both will normally result in a firmer stool. Conversely, the poo is likely less firm after a rest / sleep phase when the body relaxed for a longer period - of course, it will also depend on the health state of the organism, fitness level and the type and amount of food. Ok, I was wondering if that is what you meant. Thanks for clarifying. Just so you know that is incorrect. Skeletal muscle plays no role in compaction of bowel contents. And metronidazole is an anti-protozoal too. It's use would be indicated in this case. think it over next time you sit on your toilet... Valsalva manoeuvre does not equate to skeletal muscle firming the stool. I wasn't referring to holding your breath because your poo is smelly - it was more about the muscles usage / control while you pee and poo; there are even specific pelvic floor muscle exercises to strengthen those muscles that doctors might recommend in case of incontinence etc. ...sorry for getting off-topic.

the dog stuff?...I only found the cat food when I checked online... Eta:...spelling... https://www.woolworths.com.au/Shop/Browse/pet/dog-food-adult-senior?name=applaws-it-s-all-good-dry-dog-food-chicken-turkey&productId=899673 ETA and if you scroll down the lamb & kangaroo is there too. ETA x 2 the fact that a product is on sale can sometimes be a hint that it will be discontinued, but it seems to be there for now. that's weird ...if I enter 'Applaws' into the search engine it only comes up with cat food, and for the page you linked to it says 'unavailable'...?... I will ask tomorrow.

it is definitely not a probiotic...and a softer poo at night time (after a sleep the poo is mostly a little bit softer as there is less compaction due to muscle usage) is nothing that point to digestion issues in the first place. Dogs get older, metabolism can change and so the periods between poo ime... What does this mean? Usage of which muscles influence poo softness? for most people (and dogs ...) sports or another activity where they use their core muscles (stomach / back) will result in 'compacting' the intestines, plus there is the impact of a more efficient metabolism due to a higher energy demand - both will normally result in a firmer stool. Conversely, the poo is likely less firm after a rest / sleep phase when the body relaxed for a longer period - of course, it will also depend on the health state of the organism, fitness level and the type and amount of food. Ok, I was wondering if that is what you meant. Thanks for clarifying. Just so you know that is incorrect. Skeletal muscle plays no role in compaction of bowel contents. And metronidazole is an anti-protozoal too. It's use would be indicated in this case. think it over next time you sit on your toilet...

the dog stuff?...I only found the cat food when I checked online... Eta:...spelling...

indeed, I read through all the posts again and yes, how could there have been ever any doubt with all the clear evidence....

...with no roadkill left in the freezer (and no fresh ones on the road) I wanted to fill up my stash for the emergency kibble just to find out that Woolworth dumped the Applaws brand?...and replaced it with this 'Farmers Market'? ...they even don't disclose any ingredients / percentages on their webpage http://farmersmarketpetfood.com.au/our-range/beef ... ...time to get a compound bow and fill up the freezer with some real fresh stuff...

maybe she had an encounter with a centipede, scorpion or spider ...in this case, after more than a day / 24 hours there is not much you can do (and nothing needed)...if she is eating and drinking and pooing and weeing fine she should be ok...

it is definitely not a probiotic...and a softer poo at night time (after a sleep the poo is mostly a little bit softer as there is less compaction due to muscle usage) is nothing that point to digestion issues in the first place. Dogs get older, metabolism can change and so the periods between poo ime... What does this mean? Usage of which muscles influence poo softness? for most people (and dogs ...) sports or another activity where they use their core muscles (stomach / back) will result in 'compacting' the intestines, plus there is the impact of a more efficient metabolism due to a higher energy demand - both will normally result in a firmer stool. Conversely, the poo is likely less firm after a rest / sleep phase when the body relaxed for a longer period - of course, it will also depend on the health state of the organism, fitness level and the type and amount of food.

without knowing I bet AU$ 10 that your client's dog is a retriever? ...I think the potential market is likely limited to those breeds...but then they carry whatever you give them, so why spending $$ on another leash?...because people can, oh well.... Actually, the client's dog is a Staffy :) He loves to tug on and carry his lead! ...you ruined my day... staffies behaving like retrievers... the world is going mad :) ...