Willem

Huski....you have got it in one...that is exactly what I feel he is doing. He distance handles beautifully & I could pretty much do a novice course with him, just with me standing in the middle & directing him. But for some reason he doesn't like me getting in front of him as you have to do with a lot of these new moves required for Masters. That's why it feels like he is trying to herd me or slow me down. Maybe when you are in front of him he sees you as blocking his access to fun (equipment)? If he is mid way through the course and you release him to his favourite reward (food/tug) would he stop running the course to come to you to get rewarded? If not that would indicate to me that there is a problem with your reward system, he should believe working with you gives him access to the things he loves to do and your rewards, not that you are the fun police or getting in the way of fun. ...or he feels like you just added another feature to the game by playing the 'cattle' for him :) (no offence meant)...and now he gets mixed up with his instincts and what he learned so far...

I assume this is the challenge for breeders, I'm sure they try hard to get rid of some now unwanted characteristic instincts associated with some breeds, e.g. when it comes to aggression. Some breeds in the past were just bred for aggression, fighting and killing. Even some now highly rated family pet dogs had a 'dark history' as fighting dogs (e.g. bull baiting)...so sometimes it's better to lose unwanted instincts.

hm, sounds more 'gentle' than 'finger in the throat' :) ...it definitely doesn't make our dog fearful, she comes licks the hands, and she has a lot of trust in me when it comes to tackle new equipment on the agility course: last time we introduced the chute - it's 'point and shoot' for her, she goes through it like a bullet...I guess I could point to a burning tire and she would jump through. The nibbling / mouthing was pretty annoying for the kids and also for me, but it stopped totally now, except, when training for agility: sometimes (rarely) she wants to start it again respectively gets her crazy 30 seconds. The reasons for this (my opinion - others might be more experienced) is that she was just bred to do so: my hands are nothing else than a limb, it is no big difference 'playing chasing cattle and get them going by mouthing their legs' and doing an agility run with some arms waving around...now if you pull your arms back to avoid the mouthing: the dog is in the move and will try to nib something else...it doesn't happend at the beginning of the training, but when her focus is exhausted - that's when the instincts come through and 'she forgets that she doesn't want to nibble'. wrt 'choices': taking my fingers or arm in her mouth or to leave it (and just lick them or touch them)...that's clearly her choice...and she knows this, however, when the training is too long and she is overstimulated, the instinct comes through. ETA: yesterday in training I 'crated' her the first time away from the group in the car for 10 minutes when I could recognize she lost focus - after this she did 2 very impressive (for her age) runs (jumps, tire, pause table, tunnel, chute in both directions, except the chute of course). ETA: I guess the characteristic that BCs like to chase 'limbs' might be one of the reasons why they are so easy to train for agility...yesterday I could also recognize that other breeds - while still following the owners hands - doing it in a somehow 'not so attached' way.

@ The Spotted Devil:...I acknowledge that you have much more experience with dogs than I have and that I can learn a lot from people like you. Nevertheless I don't understand why 'finger in the throat' as a very! direct response when she tries to take my hand or fingers in here mouth is more punishment than closing the door of a crate (as shown in your link) when the dogs wants to come out?... I even doubt that she experiences the 'finger in the throat' as punishment, it is more 'eating a treat' that tastes terrible so the next time she doesn't take it in here mouth.

Ah - but a collar grab game used correctly does not ask her to calm down. It asks her to use self-control in an aroused state to get what she finds rewarding - i.e. the tug. Like my Springers who are WILD about birds and game - they will hold a rock solid sit stay with rabbits and birds right in front of them because they understand that's the surest way to be rewarded with a retrieve. My Em literally shakes from head to toe she's so excited but waits until she is given permission. ...that's why we do the flirt pole 'take it - leave it' game ...here she can bite and nibble and tug...but all on my terms and she follows now the 'LEAVE IT' command 100%; her parents are pure working / herding dogs and she has a very strong mouthing / nibbling instinct, not sure whether this is the same with your springers...

...collar grabbing, calm her down (yes, she calms down...but 5 minutes later she started again...), walking away, ignored her...stern look (definitely doesn't work)... some of the above stopped her for the moment doing it, what I want is that she doesn't start it at all. I also train her with the flirt pole...the 'take it - leave it' game...so this also seems to help and now a big 'NO' and 'LEAVE IT' works in 99% of the scenarios when she gets overexcited. ETA: ...the flirt pole is actually a very good tool to train her while she is in this overexcited mode...

...nothing else worked - this worked, and yes, it doesn't feel nice for her (that's why she led immediately go and now nibbles only very rarely during high arousal), but believe me, it hurts me more than her as she has very sharp teeth :) ETA:...I don't think she is frustrated...she is just overexcited and her instincts come through...

I have the same issues with our girl...3 ripped shirts in the meanwhile...when she jumps and tries to nip I do the 'finger into the throat' game ...I used this method to teach her that 'she doesn't want my - or anyone's fingers - in her mouth' ...worked so far for the 'normal' training when she just wanted to take my hand / fingers into here mouth, but it is of course pretty tricky during a run and comes with some scratches...but it seems to work also during the agility.

not important as original purpose was / is herding; however, the abilities and characteristics associated with the original purpose are important: intelligent, tough, loves the outdoor, no couch potato...predictable size, suitable for agility sport... yes ...we do agility... yes, we train her not to nibble for obvious reasons...

...Just wondering what the relevance of your neighbojr's choice of future dog breed my choice of school / pre-school / Kindergarten is to...well, anything really

oh dear... I didn't think that my English was so bad - my humble apology: I thought I made it quite clear that I don't underestimate the damage our dog can do, she has actually a very powerful bite. ...the 'only' BC was put in apostrophe...however, one single BC is obviously easier to handle and to supervise than 3 Malamutes... Our backyard has no adjacent border to the street (blocked by the house), to get into the backyard needs passing 2 lockable gates ...plus most of the time our dog is supervised. The fence of concern to one of the neighbours (the one with the toddler, who will get a Rottweiler soon BTW) is a 1.8 m high wooden fence plus some wire mesh in front of it (so somehow double fenced). The ground is not concrete, but with some reinforcement - could she dig through?...properly, but it would take some time. I will do a proper inspection with my neighbour from the other site of the fence and we will discus what we do - till then I / my wife will inspect the fence twice a day. Despite all the interest in my backyard, I suggest we start a separate thread about 'yard safety' where we can discuss further details about my backyard and all the things that could made our gardens / premises dog safer if people are really interested in it...

so is your dog in an escape proof yard? Concrete flooring so it can't dig and a roof over head so it can't climb, with a padlock on the gate. Cause that's the only way to fully prevent things like this happening.... honestly and in a nutshell: the backyard is currently safe, but there is room for improvement. Are you happy now?

guys, this thread is not about me and our dog - it is about a tragic accident happened to 8 year old girl, who will be reminded of it for the rest of her life! The question I ask myself when reading about those accidents is: what can I do to make the environment around my dog a little bit safer to minimize the risk that those accidents happen again?...in this specific case I had already a close look at my own fence, because that is something I can fix (if there is a weak spot), doesn't cost much and might prevent another accident. @Bjelkier: ...just put me on the 'ignored user list' - problem solved :D !

...in this source from another angle; I don't call this a sound fence to contain powerful dogs, however, I don't know how it looks from the inside. If there is nothing that would hinder the dogs from digging their way through it is definitely not suitable. so your dog is contained in an escape proof yard? Yes, please show us the fort knoxs you have created to keep your dog 100% safe from everything that could possibly happen. firstly: I don't own such powerful dogs! secondly: despite owning 'only' a BC, I took this tragic accident as a sad reminder to inspect my fence as one side is adjacent to a family with a toddler. This afternoon I will have a chat with the neighbour and we will inspect the fence from his site to discuss any potential safety issues. Your BC could easily do enough damage to a child's hand/arm that it would require amputation. I've investigated an incident where a tiny Poodle X practically degloved an elderly woman's hand - she needed specialist hand surgery. Do not underestimate how powerful ALL dogs mouths are. I don't underestimate the damage she can do - exactly that's the reason why I try to learn something from this accident and don't take it as god given....

what's your problem?

...in this source from another angle; I don't call this a sound fence to contain powerful dogs, however, I don't know how it looks from the inside. If there is nothing that would hinder the dogs from digging their way through it is definitely not suitable. so your dog is contained in an escape proof yard? Yes, please show us the fort knoxs you have created to keep your dog 100% safe from everything that could possibly happen. firstly: I don't own such powerful dogs! secondly: despite owning 'only' a BC, I took this tragic accident as a sad reminder to inspect my fence as one side is adjacent to a family with a toddler. This afternoon I will have a chat with the neighbour and we will inspect the fence from his site to discuss any potential safety issues.

It would be completely understandable to assume your dogs safe when secured from escaping or sticking their heads out of their own property; which is your obligation as a pet owner in suburbia. You need to secure your dogs and that's what the owners have done. It was a horrible accident but that's all. NO!!!!...the tragic is that all these kind of accidents are preventable if people would follow their duty of care!

yep, they do a pretty good job in pre-school and Kindergarten in the meanwhile...

nope, doesn't happen only in movies; everyone has a certain 'pain threshold', once the pain signals to the brain exceed this threshold the brain shuts down and you pass out (I know this also from own experience). The girl might have passed out for a moment without remembering it..., but again, I don't think it matters.

...it is enough to get infected with a flesh eating bacteria (Necrotizing Fasciitis) that is immun to antibiotics - this is actually not so rare in the meanwhile.

It's half the width of one of those treated pine boards they put under those fences and that's big enough for a muzzle or a hand. The fence was obviously not good enough to keep the dogs away from people because someone did get bitten. When it was originally put up it would have been okay but dog owners need to keep checking their fences and do regular maintenance. Don't just assume that they are okay. exactly, that's their duty of care!...I do a lot of work on mine sites and when it comes to safety / JSAs I (and others) can't just assume that it is safe - I have to know it, or if I can't evaluate it I have to get someone who is qualified to do so. If the safety can't be verified any work has to stop till all the hazards are resolved - there is just no room for assumptions!

...that's exactly the problem, too many people just assume that it is safe...

...in this source from another angle; I don't call this a sound fence to contain powerful dogs, however, I don't know how it looks from the inside. If there is nothing that would hinder the dogs from digging their way through it is definitely not suitable.

agree, but I also think it doesn't really matter - if you are the owner of 3 powerful dogs, can't supervise them 24/7, and live in an area with other families you have to make sure that they are in a secure compound - that includes sound fencing that prevents any accidental contact between the dogs and people.

...other sources state that they know which dog it was, but that the council is still investigating...