Willem

interesting article...her parents are pure working dogs, in an area where it is just not possible to avoid encounters with snakes, so she might get it from there...I hope that is wasn't just sheer luck and that she will show the same behaviour (staying away from the snake) the next time....

I did some reading before we got our short-hair (smooth coat) border collie and the best description about 'rough vs smooth' I found was here: http://darnfar.com/FAQ/rough_vs_smooth_coat.htm . The McNab seems to be a little bit heavier built https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McNab_dog...and here http://mcnabcattledogs.com/breedingStock.php

...that's not what I think it is????...you don't want to setup a mushroom farm in his fur :D ???...hey, this is Australia, not Spitzbergen.... :laugh: surveillance cameras are pretty cheap now, easy to setup and definitely would provide some peace of mind...check evil bay, e.g. http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Wireless-WiFi-IP-Network-Home-Security-Camera-Surveillance-System-Night-Vision-/401077213932?hash=item5d62109aec:g:0wEAAOSwx-9WzmL3

hm, that would make an interesting study: are herding / cattle dogs more snake savvy than other dogs? ...regards evolution it would make sense, however 100 years is pretty short for evolution and I assume that 'snake savvyness' wasn't in the focus of the breeder?

the RBBs are the good ones...because they eat - amongst frogs and mice and cockroaches - also the real dangerous ones e.g. eastern brown :D ...they (the RBBs) are pretty shy too and also this little fellow preferred just to escape if I would have let it. However, we have kids who play in the garden (and the dog) so it's better to relocate them. They also don't inject much venom (if), so they really not so dangerous. We had also juvenile eastern browns in the garden (their bite - also when little - is much more dangerous), but they have been pretty shy too. I'm really not scared about snakes knowing that I'm not on their food list - one exception so, and that is the black mamba (luckily we don't have them here), they are just too fast and unpredictable. Here a nice diamond? python (not from our garden so, but seen in the Morton NP):

...I will let the snake buster know :D ...my wife always calls them when I have caught a snake in our garden ...I'm not so sure whether they really appreciate it to drive all the way just for a little red-bellied black snake as they are pretty common here...here another one (before we got the dog):

she was not really scared ...tail and hair on the back up and it was a loud aggressive baying...somehow knowing that it is not a good idea to get too close to this little fellow (she catches mice and rats without making a big thing out of it or barking). It was the first time - to our knowledge - that she encountered a snake, but did all the right things...that is what surprised me...

no worries, at the end it is you who is the responsible owner - we can only give ideas...different views... possible solutions based on the shared information. However, this shared information can only be a tiny fraction of the whole story. You - or some expert who can visit you - are of course in a much better position to find the right approach that addresses most of the issues ('most' as sometimes there has to be a compromise). The advantage with forums like this is that it allows for different opinions and advises, but - of course - it doesn't mean that it takes the final responsibility away from the dog owner. Good luck with Annie, she seems to be a fine character, Rusty seems to be more a boofhead :) - keep us informed how you go and what the behaviourists recommend.

...our dog seems to be more snake savvy than I thought...alarmed us with loud barking outside...went out and thought already that it might be a snake, couldn't see it; took her on the leash and let her guide me (had always tension on the leash)...and then I found this little red belly black snake. When she sniffed the grass / rocks etc. she was very, very careful, always flicked the head back anticipating a strike...when and where did she learn this?....instinct?...

This might have been true 40 years ago when little fluffies never left the house, there was no such thing as a lab x poodle that never learned any manners, and most people who had a dog had a clue about dog body language. Now we have dogs who don't read other dog's body language because they left the litter before they learned it. So what happens if you leave my dog to sort it - she will, without killing the other dog. But the other dog won't enjoy it at all and neither will the owner. Some dogs are really slow on the back off message (eg Rusty) and then the next dog my dog sees - gets the same treatment. Which involves being herded away at speed and chomped enough to make a dog squeal but not break the skin. The dog being herded with violence may have done nothing wrong - it may have just looked like the previous rude dog that got in my dog's face. Or it may have gotten in her face uninvited - which means it can't read her dog body language - totally stiff, upright, fixed stare and tail straight out the back parallel to the ground...ready to pounce hard and herd. And she will shoulder charge the approaching dog, turn it away and then chase it until it is a distance she deems acceptable - usually half a football oval. Which I find completely unacceptable at the park - so I prevent it as best I can (sometimes we get surprised by a dog I didn't see before she did). Most other owners do not want their rude dogs sorted out in this way either. I would teach Rusty appropriate manners by preventing and interrupting "rehearsals of bad behaviour" as much as possible. I might teach him better greeting manners. For example: holding a drop while the other dog has a sniff - not jumping all over its head and then going in for a bit of excited humping. I would not do what Willem has suggested because my dog over does it. And every dog that looks like the rude dog suffers. The Kelpie in this story deserves the owner's protection. If the kelpie has to sort it the kelpie will not respect the owner's lead because when she needed it - she didn't get it so clearly she's taking care of the owner now and not the other way about. And that leads to more stress for a dog. Dogs are like human 2 year olds when it comes to making decisions in their own best interests. They are also opportunists, and will take what they can get when they can get it. That doesn't mean that's a good way to solve a problem. That's why adult humans take care of dogs and set the rules and not the other way about. If you let the dog set the rules and enforce them - you can be in a whole world of trouble. IMO it is not about how they behave regards other dogs outside the house in public - this can / have to be controlled by the owner(s), and the 'let them sort it out' approach I'm talking is definitely not meant for public places respectively with foreign dogs. IMO this 'let them sort it out' approach also doesn't compromise the leadership of the owner - because it is dog vs dog and a (pack)leader doesn't bother about the ranking below him/her as long as no pack member challenges the first rank. IMO the problem here is not even a real ranking / dominance issue - the beagle just wants to play and overdoes it (might be typical for beagles)....all what he needs is to learn that it might hurt when he keeps on going after the kelpie snarls her teeth. It is also reassuring for the kelpie making the experience that she can keep him off her back - at the moment it is only confusing for her: she shows all the right signals (so her instincts are intact), but doesn't get the right response...that is what causing her the stress. I only can comment on the information the OP provides here, but based on the information I definitely would consider this not so popular approach - it could solve the whole issue pretty quick. Trying to micromanage the whole situation with more or less success over a longer period could do significant damage too, and will maintain the stress for the kelpie (it will always be an unsolved threat for her). Furthermore, if the OP finds out after half a year that it doesn't work out it won't increase the chances to rehome the beagle either. edited to correct some spelling ....

...from the OP's information I can't see that the dogs are 'problem dogs' (conversely to your dog)...one of them just wants to play and doesn't understand the signals the other dog sends...and so far he got away with his immature behaviour all the time (which is part of the problem). He was rehomed already (too) many times, so I believe some risk might be justified for the chance of keeping both dog without having stress all the time.

...if dogs' instincts aren't buried too much under all our micromanagement and perhaps ruined by inappropriate human 'education' measures dogs are normally pretty good in sorting out such situations without killing each other. Wrt the scenario you described I would have been reluctant to intervene, due to the following: both dogs are not aggressive dogs, the Kelpie showed it more than once that she prefers to solve conflicts without fighting or becoming aggressive, and the beagle's behaviour is not aggressive, but intimidating as he never learned when he has to back off; ...and by stopping such conflicts you actually take the chance from the beagle that he will finally learn what all this submissive behaviour and warning signs from the kelpie mean. It seems the kelpie did great and it looks like she has a fine character, not aggressive, but at the end it seems that she is willing to do what a dog does if the other dog oversteps the line. IMO there are 2 options: you micromanage them both till you find out that it is just too much work and you will try to rehome the beagle; or you let them sort it out - the chances are very good (because they are not aggressive dogs) that this will be a more sustainable solution. Once the beagle learned to interpret the kelpie's signals he will know when it is time to back off...and it will be much less stress for the kelpie as she learns that her body language works and keeps the beagle away. The problem is that the beagle never learned appropriate dog social manners before, and it is always harder to learn this at a later stage - the kelpie might hurt him when teaching the lesson, but she won't kill him. You - or someone else - might be able to achieve some improved behaviour with administered training measures, however - IMO - there are things a dog can only learn from a dog.

that happens...and if there is one dog that just doesn't like the company of the other dog there is not much you can do, IMO you can't train her to like the other one, you can only try to manage it...different breeds, different characters and energy levels - doesn't go together sometimes. ...maybe he has to learn it the hard way...

...my thoughts too... Because they both need help and the kelpie has quite likely developed issues that won't just go away because the other dog starts behaving? hard to tell but post #4 is all about medicating the kelpie and nothing about training the other dog - as if there is nothing wrong with that one. Chances are if it stops harassing the kelpie - the kelpie won't be so stressed it pees everywhere. Or the kelpie could have spey incontinence... ...IMO it is submissive peeing / behaviour ...or fighting one day if the other dog doesn't change behaviour and the kelpie feels cornered; for both (peeing or fighting) you can't blame the kelpie, and if it (the peeing) should be stopped or potential future fighting prevented it has to start with the other dog...

...my thoughts too...

not saying that this 'ignoring strategy' doesn't work at all, but I'm always concerned that this 'waiting period' becomes a habit or part of the game - my approach was to teach her sit, drop and stay (comes with normal obedience training anyway). Once the dog response is reliable you can stop the jumping before it starts. if a puppy can do all this - that's fine :) the puppy concerned is a 3 mth pomeranian - so I very much doubt she has learned all this so far ... I have found the ignoring works well with our pups ( koolies) .. ...it is horses for courses ...every method has its limitations, e.g. ignoring our jumpy BC was just impossible for our 7 year old daughter, or it is also not much fun for a not so stable adult to ignore a 38 kg lab going nuts and jumping on them...

..yeah, I thought about throwing it just over the fence too, but our neighbours won't give us any reasons to do so :laugh:

not saying that this 'ignoring strategy' doesn't work at all, but I'm always concerned that this 'waiting period' becomes a habit or part of the game - my approach was to teach her sit, drop and stay (comes with normal obedience training anyway). Once the dog response is reliable you can stop the jumping before it starts.

...I missed this bit...doesn't make much sense to me as the urine goes anyway straight to the lawn :D ...didn't train her till now to pee somewhere else in the garden to avoid the yellow stains, however, I installed a simple sprinkler system that allows us easy watering the lawn if we are a little bit late walking her (the first 1-2 pees in the morning seems to be the lawn killers...). ETA: I think the risk for ground water is minimal respectively not higher compared to using normal fertilizer - the fermentation process breaks the pooh down into valuable nutrients for plants, so as long as you dog isn't on any medication it will actually produce a high quality fertilizer.

that is what I do - just scoop it from the lawn and chuck it in a 60 liter drum and leave it to the worms; that works, but takes a while till everything is broken down and turned into compost without any signs of pooh. This anaerobic digestion process has some advantages over the normal worm composter - it is totally sealed and obviously it is much faster (takes just a week). However once the bucket is closed I guess it is not a good idea to open it every time I find another poo on the lawn as it would allow air / oxygen to get into the bucket compromising the anaerobic process; hence I would have to store it somewhere else till I can start another batch - that offsets somehow the advantage...I might just stick with my worm compost system. You would probably need to have to have a couple of buckets - one in action and another holding the waste for the next load. If you had lots of poo to deal with you might need more systems ... I had tried worm dog toilet but I think I kept killing off the worms because I would forget the rule about "do not add poo for at least a week after worming" ... We just brought the round compost bins from Bunnings, dug a hole about half the height of the compost bin and then placed the compost bin over the top of that. We have two bins and move them maybe every 18 months or so if that ... we use one until it is full and then let it sit while we use the other bin - when the second bin is almost full we then relocate the first bin to another location within the yard - everything is well and truly composted by then - it is either used to full any holes in the yard or added to the garden. The compost bin's don't tend to smell - we also add lawn clipping, shredded paper, old potting mix from pot plants that get re-potted, and even extra kitchen scraps that don't go to the worm farm. Also if you have a few buckets, the problem (or advantage) is that a batch takes only 7 days - during this fermentation phase opening the bucket would allow Oxygen / air to enter that would compromise the anaerobic process. If I don't want to store the pooh, I could have 7 buckets and start a batch every day, but that seems to be an overkill for just 1-2 poohs... wrt worm composting: I did some tests with interceptor - gave the first poohs after de-worming into a separate bucket with tigerworms and couldn't see any negative impact on the worm activity. That might be different with other de-wormers, but since the testing I gave all the pooh, also the ones after de-worming, straight into the composter and never had any issues.

@ OP: if the dog is old enough I recommend normal obedience classes in a dog trainings club - likely cheaper, socialisation with other dogs and dog owners included, and the dogs learn also 'from each other', at least it is a different learning when other dogs and owners around. If a dog is only 'home' trained she might become just perfect while at home and / or in the own backyard, however, it doesn't guarantee the same good behaviour when walking the dog in public and in the presence of other distractions. Instructors (and other dog owners) will also be able to give you advice regards toilet training and other issues.

...they are still there...?....

the ones in post #24 & #25?...there are still there for me...perhaps your browser configuration?

...I don't want to run with the pooh through the house, it's much easier to chuck it in the drum in the garden, and hose the scoops on the lawn with the garden hose if required...and I like the idea getting something useful out of it (like compost).

that is what I do - just scoop it from the lawn and chuck it in a 60 liter drum and leave it to the worms; that works, but takes a while till everything is broken down and turned into compost without any signs of pooh. This anaerobic digestion process has some advantages over the normal worm composter - it is totally sealed and obviously it is much faster (takes just a week). However once the bucket is closed I guess it is not a good idea to open it every time I find another poo on the lawn as it would allow air / oxygen to get into the bucket compromising the anaerobic process; hence I would have to store it somewhere else till I can start another batch - that offsets somehow the advantage...I might just stick with my worm compost system.